Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 22:45:21 -0500 From: John Subject: COZY: Emer ELT Hi Guys, I'm in the process of installing a Model AK-450 Emergency Locator Transmitter. I figured the unit can be installed on the cabin side of the firewall but what do I do about an antenna? I thought maybe the spare com antenna could be used but that wouldn't work if the wings were to part the plane on impact. During my three visits to Oshkosh I haven't noticed any external ELT antennas. I was just wondering if we just stuff the whip antenna supplied with the unit in the back by the firewall. Thanks for the inputs. Johnny V N69CZ From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:33:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Emer ELT I have an ACK ELT, the unit is mounted on the floor, aft of the front seat, to the left side of the seat brace. The antenna is mounted with a bracket to the aft side of the front seat, half way up, with the whip going through small holes in the horizontal of the shoulder support, and into the pilot's headrest. The connection is a short piece of coax. cable. The ACK is portable, with a separate antenna, and carrying strap, and uses off the local store shelf "D" batteries. Also it has a remote control, which I have located near the pilots stick that allows on or off easily. Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 10:40:13 -0500 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: Emer ELT John, I have the same ELT. After much experimentation, I mounted it on the floor just forward of the lower instrument panel....my knees are over it. I can reach the switches on the unit and I have the antenna going up the side wall...seems to work just fine. dd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:28:07 -0600 From: James Russell Subject: COZY: Re: ELT mounts Hi: Don't forgot crash loads. I've seen 15 lb. Cozy batteries mounted on the forward side of the firewall above the seats with two 1/4" hold-downs! (20 G X 15 lbs. = 300 lb. battery, not to mention fire/shorts/fumes). I remember reading (in Flying) about a Tiger aborted take-off resulting in the loose briefcase (in the backseat) going through the windscreen, missing both frontseaters. I think that the FAA 9G design load is too low because of all the commercial seat mount failures resulting in people (still strapped in) piled up up againist the bulkheads. I know crashworthiness is not a fun subject, but phsyics always wins. Regards, James Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:02:26 -0500 From: John Subject: COZY: Elt Response Hi Group, You have been helpful and instrumental in my ELT installation process. The following are my thoughts on, and the instillation of, the Model AK-450 ELT. The location of the whip antenna, behind the front seat back along the center support, was almost unanimous by the group so, I installed it there. I made an aluminum bracket for the antenna base to attach to the lower part of the back support. The antenna curves around the fuel line cover and is supported on top by a fiberglass bracket glued in place. I don't have a ground plane for the antenna but then again, its used when the plane crashes and you'll have plenty of ground at that time. I installed the ELT unit under the left rear seat. There is enough room to align it properly without interference with the seat cover. I cut a hole in the seat bulkhead in front of the ELT to the shape of its control area. Now I have access to the ELT controls and can plug the antenna into it. I mounted the ELT unit bracket to an aluminum plate using 10-32 flush screws and tapped the attachment holes. I marked the attachment holes at the mounting location and drilled through the inner skin for screw clearance. The aluminum plate was then glued and riveted in place. The installation looks neat and the unit can be easily retrieved. Just lift the seat cover, pull out the unit, unplug the antenna wire, and away we go. Thanks again. Johnny V N69CZ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:58:07 -0800 From: Tim Andres Subject: Re: COZY: Elt Response John wrote: > I don't have a ground plane for the > antenna but then again, its used when the plane crashes and you'll have > plenty of ground at that time. > John: > You misunderstand the term "ground". You still need an electrical > ground to form the the opposite pole for the antenna to work against. It > has nothing to do with the ground you landed on unless a very good > electrical conection is made to the ground and the local earth has good > electrical properties...besides that, what if you landed in the trees? > :-) > Tim A. , Wannabe builder > From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:42:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Elt Response Tim Said Theoretically a ground plane is required, but I can assure that without an official ground plane, and with only a short whip with a pigs tail helix in the middle does transmit. I have had 3 times the ELT go off when no one was near the plane. All 3 times it was picked up. What about handhelds com radios?? I believe the efficiency of the antenna will be better with the ground plane, but adequate if none. Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:12:13 -0500 From: bil kleb Subject: Re: COZY: Emer ELT John wrote: > > what do I do about an antenna? fwiw: jim weir of http://www.rst-engr.com/ worked up a design (sparked by a question in the rec.aviation.homebuilt newsgroup) a while back and wrote it up for his kitplane's may 1997 aero'lectrics column. basically, it is an "x" of copper tape or #12 house wire. -- bil From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:59:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Emer ELT Without looking at Wier's notes, I would not bond a wire, and not use foil at all for an ELT antenna. Whatever is used must be self supporting, and substantial enough to maintain its integrity if the structure around it fails in a crash. The foil tears easily, and even if not bonded to the fiberglass. From: JoeHeag@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:47:28 EST Subject: COZY: ELT Antenna I had the same thought to follow Jim Weir's lead and install the antenna in the fuselage side. I presented the idea to Nat. He came up with a pretty good reason not to permanently install the antenna. In Cozy Newsletter #58, page six he indicates we should all have a portable ELT that we might carry with us if we were unfortunate enough to have an off-field landing. Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:19:58 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: COZY: ELT Antenna At 10:47 PM 1/13/99 EST, you wrote: >I had the same thought to follow Jim Weir's lead and install the antenna in >the fuselage side. I presented the idea to Nat. He came up with a pretty >good reason not to permanently install the antenna. In Cozy Newsletter #58, >page six he indicates we should all have a portable ELT that we might carry >with us if we were unfortunate enough to have an off-field landing. I'll suggest that a permanent antenna inside the airplane is a good idea. Your hand-held ELT can be mounted where it's accessable by folk able to access it. The alternative is that the ELT's installation should allow it to operate automatically with the highest probability of success (ELTs are already severly handicapped . . . the fleet record on useful ELT ops after a crash is dismally poor). It's also a good idea to have access to the ELT for operation as a hand held with a built-on antenna. Hence TWO antennas are suggested. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:14:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Emer ELT Pollock said I had to supervise loading out an VZ that went in nearly vertical, 30 feet from I-480 near Cleveland several years ago. The pilot had only minor injuries, and was in the hospital for less than 12 hours for observation. There were major cracks everywhere on the airframe, but the fuselage was basically intact except the nose front of F-22 was gone. A wonder that the pilot's legs were fine. Message: No place is sacred to cracks. From: Wayne_Blackler@ansett.com.au Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:15:11 +1000 Subject: Re[2]: COZY: ELT Antenna G'Day All, I have sent Terry Schubert (CSA) a plan of an Australian approved ELT (permanent) installation. The plan is a little hard to read and may need to be redrawn, however it meets the Australian standards for certification. It goes under the front seat thigh support in the Long EZ. Regards Wayne. From ???@??? Fri Jan 29 18:58:30 1999 Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id WAA25936 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA32290 for cozy_builders-list; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:54:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA32285 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:54:43 -0500 From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA09470; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:48:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:48:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from ely-oh4-52.ix.netcom.com(206.216.59.180) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009400; Thu Jan 28 20:47:42 1999 To: cozy@extremezone.com To: Michael.Pollock@mci.com To: cozy_builders@canard.com Message-Id: <1999128214143541@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: COZY: Emer ELT X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cdenk@ix.netcom.com X-UIDL: 0aecb3385bfcccb2099397e14c3c92d7 NAt wrote: of a desolate area? That my thinking, my ACK Elt won't fit in my pocket, but uses 8 readily available "D" batteries (which I have replaced while away from home) (there was a defect causing uncommanded activation). There is both a portable whip antenna, and carrying strap. Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:16:19 -0500 From: bil kleb Subject: Re: COZY: Emer ELT Nat Puffer wrote: > > Aren't we supposed to be able to remove the ELT and carry it > with us if we are trying to hike out of a desolate area? depends. most survival books/experts recommend staying put in nearly all scenarios.. -- bil Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:15 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Pollock Subject: Re: COZY: Emer ELT If I remember correctly, it was an ACK ELT with an additional telescoping antenna attached to the side of the ELT unit mounted under the front seat. The external ELT antenna was the one attached to the carry-through spar. The ELT unit would still be accessible in the event one wants to hike out of a desolate area. Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:50 -0600 (CST) From: Nat Puffer To: Michael Pollock , Cozy_Builders Subject: Re: COZY: Emer ELT Builders, Excuse me. Aren't we supposed to be able to remove the ELT and carry it with us if we are trying to hike out of a desolate area? My ELT fits in my pocket and has a whip antenna. Regards, Nat ---------- > From: Michael Pollock > To: Cozy_Builders > Subject: Re: COZY: Emer ELT > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 8:00 AM > > There was a guy who built a Velocity who used Jim Wier's ELT antenna. > He mounted it on the aft side of the main carry-through spar, just > between the mounting holes. He figured that this would be the most > secure place in the event of a crash. I cannot remember who it was > though. > > Michael.Pollock@mci.com > Flying Velocity N173DT > Building Cozy MKIV #643 From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:15:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Emer ELT Kleb said Agreed, keep the ELT with you, preferable to stay put, but might be good reasons to leave, nice to have the option. Also a portable could be removed from the airframe before a fire, or other impending event.