Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:14:50 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: Complex/High Performance? We had a discussion sometime back on whether a 200 HP Cozy with retractable nose gear was a complex and/or high performance aircraft. I can't find it in the archives, neither can Marc (we both looked where we thought it might be). Anyone remember when we discussed this or where it might be so I can re-read it? Thanks, Eric Westland From: "John Stricker" Subject: Re: COZY: Complex/High Performance? Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:18:20 -0600 Eric, I don't recall the discussion, but we've been kicking this around in the IFR group with other aircraft. Whether or not an a/c is complex is in the FAR's FAR 61.31 (e) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller), unless the person has So no, it is NOT a complex a/c as it does not have flaps. Most also do not have a controllable pitch propeller. Just because it is a retract does not make it complex. High Performance is also defined in 61.31 (f) (1)Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower), unless the person has So unless you have 201 horsepower, your Cozy is NOT high performance. I just got my multi in a Twin Comanche (PA30-160) a while back and while the TC is definitely complex it is NOT high performance, even though it has a total of 320 hp it does not have an engine of more than 200 hp. According to the part 61 FAQ and other sources I've found, this change was intentional. (Although a bit warped, IMHO) John Stricker jstricke@odsys.net "I didn't spend all these years getting to the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian" From: "Nat Puffer" Subject: Re: COZY: Complex/High Performance? Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:52:59 -0600 Eric, When only 1 out of 3 wheels retract, and you can't be sure whether you engine puts out 195, 200, or 205 hp, I think you can classify it any way you want. Nat ---------- > From: Eric Westland > To: Cozy Builders > Subject: COZY: Complex/High Performance? > Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 11:14 PM > > Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:03:42 -0500 From: "Johnson, Phillip" Subject: RE: COZY: Complex/High Performance? I remember being involved in a discussion within this group some years ago re this subject matter. I recall that the choice of the word "and" was significant in the statement: .......an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, AND a controllable pitch propeller; ......... My recollection was that the aircraft needed to be equipped with all three of the following before it must be called complex: 1) retractable landing gear 2) flaps 3) a controllable pitch propeller There was also a discussion about Canadian definition of high performance. In this case the most significant factor was the wing loading. I can't remember the exact figure for wing loading but if the aircraft is not equipped with flaps then above 14.? lbs. per sq. ft constitutes high performance. With flaps the figure is increased to approximately 20lbs per sq. ft. (Sorry about the lack of precision.) Basically the Canadian Cozy III & IV are both high performance. Some people have argued that since the elevator is a slotted flap and that the flap is extended during landing, the aircraft is equipped with flaps. I posed this with my inspector this last weekend and he thought that this was a bit tenuous. Phillip Johnson From: "John Stricker" Subject: Re: COZY: Complex/High Performance? Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:00:11 -0600 Wayne, I cut and pasted right from my '99 AIM/FAR CD-ROM. This also agrees with the answers in the part 61 FAQ. There are several questions regarding twins with combined hp over 200 and the answer is the same. The a/c MUST have A engine with greater than 200 hp to be Hi-Performance. The Arrow is, and always has been, a complex trainer because it has flaps, a controllable pitch propeller, and retractable gear. But the 200 hp Arrow is not a high performance a/c. Unless the a/c is a seaplane, it must have ALL THREE things to be considered complex by the FAA. This question/distinction comes up quite often now as to what a/c is legal to use for the Commercial Practical Test. The rules have been made very clear now with the re-write, but in many cases make less sense. For example, you can now use a complex twin to demonstrate those parts of the PTS for the commercial ride, even though you don't have a Multi-Engine rating provided the DE agrees to be the PIC for that portion of the test and IS appropriately rated. Strange Goings Ons in the Reg Writing Department of the FAA, Methinks. John Stricker jstricke@odsys.net "I didn't spend all these years getting to the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian" -----Original Message----- From: L. Wayne Hicks To: John Stricker Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 3:59 PM Subject: Re: COZY: Complex/High Performance? :John Stricker wrote: :> :> Eric, :> : :> :> So unless you have 201 horsepower, your Cozy is NOT high performance. :> :---> : :Uhhm, are you sure about the 200-201 part? I recall the FAA modifying :this to now say 200 and up. They did this to keep the Arrow as a :complex trainer. : :Wayne Hicks :Cozy IV #678 :Chapter 10