From: Don Bowen Subject: COZY: RE: SportAir Composite Construction Workshop Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:03:04 -0400 Rick Maddy wrote: I wanted to know if anyone has attended SportAir's Composite Construction and Finishing Workshop. Is it worth the time and money for this specific class? Should I just get Burt's book and the practice kit? Just my 2 cents worth: I read the composite instructions in the plans and purchased the Rutan video on composite construction techniques. This provided me with enough knowledge for my Cozy Mk IV (working on chapter 14 now). The parts in chapter 4 (the first chapter in which you build anything) are not that difficult to make, and not that expensive to start over if you mess one up. I am not trying to give a negative opinion of the workshops. I don't know from personal experience, but they are probably pretty good. I just wanted you to know that you can do this type of composite construction from what is covered in chapter 3 of the plans. If you are not sure, make the practice part and then evaluate your skills. Good luck with your project, Don Bowen Cozy Mk IV s/n 440 From: "Rick Maddy" Subject: COZY: SportAir Composite Construction Workshop Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:29:09 -0600 I wanted to know if anyone has attended SportAir's Composite Construction and Finishing Workshop. Is it worth the time and money for this specific class? Should I just get Burt's book and the practice kit? The class is in Mesa, AZ next month. It's a 16 hour drive from Denver - ouch. Airfare's way too high ($342) - bigger ouch. I would hate to do this drive if the class wasn' worth it. Of course a second agenda would be to stop by Cozy Aircraft. I would love a chance to see a real Cozy Mark IV before I get started (maybe even get a ride too). The plus side is that my wife wants to take the class with me - boy am I lucky or what! Rick Maddy (cozy@maddyhome.com) Cozy Mk IV #0824: Pre-build From: "Denis Thomassin" Subject: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:01:15 -0400 Deception ! I ordered last week and viewed yesterday night the video from sportair Aviation about Basic Composite. I was expecting the video to be more descriptive about technique to use instead the focus for over one hours on the different kind of fiber, core, and resin avaible on the market and their spécific property. Nothing about how to do composite part. At one point you see one guy (you don`t see it but his hands) putting so much expoxy on a piece of clothes that I started to wonder if I was doing wrong. He was pouring the expoxy straight from the cup into the clothes like if he was adding mapple sirup to grandma`s apple cake then he was scrubbing with he squegges a lot of expoxy back to the pot. I was also surprise to see them putting a first coat of expoxy on the wax paper before adding the clothe. I normaly lay the clothe and apply expoxy over it then stab/brush/squeeg until it is wet out. They have some interesting comment about curing piece at high temperature. Am'I ok to say that with the use of AeroEpoxy their no need to cure a piece ? I live in a very cold country I don`t worry too much about 110 degrees on the ramp but I intend to finish my life in a warmer place :) In resume don`t spend 40$ + shipping. You will find the same information in chapter 3. In their publicity they that if you can``t attend the workshop the video is a good substitut ..... i wonder about the workshop. Au revoir !!! Denis Thomassin Montreal, Canada builder 705 From: mister@neesnet.com Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:30:33 -0500 Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite Denis Thomassin wrote about the Sportair Composite Video. I found that the Rutan video "Building The Rutan Composites" was an good instructional piece showing the proper technique for doing layups. The tape was in the Wicks catalog as P/N 21-35830. Bob Misterka Cozy III N342RM http://www.gis.net/~bmist ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. New England Electric System Companies ********************************************************************** From: JHTanstaaf@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:57:52 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite In a message dated 10/07/1999, 9:59:47 AM, dthomassin@chca.ca writes: <> The workshop is far better than you describe the video. In fact, Jeff Russell of AeroCad (the AeroCanard) was the instructor at the N.H. one in August. I'm told he does many of the sessions. It's two days of good hands on experience cutting cores, laying cloth, & doing some vacumn bagging. The stuff on types of cloth, cores, etc. was held to a minimum --- more of what you might need to know to build but not as much as you'd need to know to design a plane from scratch. Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 15:14:14 -0400 From: "L. Wayne Hicks" Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite Denis Thomassin wrote: > > Deception ! He was pouring the expoxy straight from the cup into the clothes -------> Yep. Fastest way to wet out large areas is to pour straight from the cup, then spread around with the squeegee. Once the cloth is saturated, you squeegee the excess and scrape it back into the up. Burt and Mike used to just scrape the epoxy onto the floor! You can brush the epoxy on, but it takes time and you run the risk of disturbing the cloth if you brush too hard. > > They have some interesting comment about curing piece at high temperature. -------> Read the archives and ANY article from Gary Hunter on post-curing. > Am'I ok to say that with the use of AeroEpoxy their no need to cure a piece > ? I live in a very cold country I don`t worry too much about 110 degrees on > the ramp but I intend to finish my life in a warmer place :) ------> There is a famous incident whereby a builder completed his plane in the northern United States, flew it to Arizona (?is that right?), left it on the ramp all day, came back and found the wings drooping a few inches. (Someone please correct me if this is an urban legend...) Even if it is, post-curing can only help. Wayne Hicks Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 17:51:47 -0400 From: Jeff Russell Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite Denis Thomassin wrote: > > Deception ! > > I ordered last week and viewed yesterday night the video from sportair > Aviation about Basic Composite. I have not seen the tape myself. I sent Ron Alexander a copy of your letter you sent to the Cozy group to see if he would respond. By the way, I hardly use a brush unless I have too. I pour from a cup most of the time and can wet out much quicker this way and remove the excess resin in less time. I put the excess back in the cup for the next piece or job. The quicker you wet out and remove the excess the lighter the part will be. I will place a bet on that one. I have seen people play with a brush for over a hour on a part that I could do in 5 to 10 minutes. What we teach is techniques. Hope that helps. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. From: "Denis Thomassin" Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Video on Composite Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:02:24 -0400 Jeff. Your comment about my concern over pourring directly they expoxy on the clothe is exactly the kind of clue I was expecting from the video. How to do, tips , etc... And I will sure try this way next weekend. In the EAA Sport Aviation magasin there was a series of article on composite and in the last one they say that AeroEpoxy do not near to be cure. I wonder what to believe. To cure or not to cure that is the question... I was expecting probably too much from it. But again the web site claim in the section annoncing the video: "Great to refresh what you learned, or if you can't attend a workshop." On the same web site there is an article about Composite aircraft http://www.sportair.com/articles/buildingcomposite.htm this article is they exact content of the video it is an excellent article and go to the limit of what you are able to give in writing form on the subject. Technicaly the video is very professional but it should add others dimensions; sounds, animation, live demonstration and i think it would have been fun to use this media to go one step further. I am sure the siminar is good because there is interaction with participant and probably some handson session. I hope it is not 2 days on how to mix epoxy. :) I dream to see a video on the construction of the cozy !!!! I expressed my concern to people at SportAir. and probably this forum was not they appropriate place to share my deception. Au revoir! Denis Thomassin Montreal. Working on chapter 6 and on my english :) From: Fritzx2@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:54:49 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: SportAir Composite Construction Workshop >I wanted to know if anyone has attended SportAir's Composite Construction >and Finishing Workshop. Is it worth the time and money for this specific >class? Should I just get Burt's book and the practice kit? For the cost conscious, I would read the educational chapter in the plans, buy the Rut an instructional video and if possible hook up with someone in the local EAA chapter who is well along on their plane. It is amazing how much you can learn by seeing someone well versed in the art of gooping and they will be more than glad to have some extra hands during some of the big layups. After doing those three, which are relatively inexpensive, you should be more than ready to tackle the project. Lots of people have probably done well with less. Not to say that additional instruction wouldn't help, but it would probably only marginally help. From the tone of your post, it sounds like you're very cost conscious. Another benefit from having the video is you can watch it over and over to reinforce good habits and help prevent you from developing bad ones. In addition, you can defer learning techniques like hot wire core cutting until you are ready to do it. On the other hand, if the spousal unit wants to go learn to help then maybe you should go for no other reason than to continue that buy-in. The Cozy plans have same and more instructional information than the Rutan book with the exception of the on-the-wall fold down cutting table that was in the Rutan book that wasn't in the plans for some reason. I thought the table with diagonal lines already drawn on the table was a good idea. I was lucky and happened to have a scrap piece of linoleum that had a straight and 45 degree pattern on it that I used. John Fritz fritzx2@aol.com From: EGStrong@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:01:00 EDT Subject: Fwd: COZY: SportAir Composite Construction Workshop Rick - I did the practice kit AND the workshop. I think that either are adequate for learning what you need to know. I felt that the one big advantage of the workshop was that you had someone looking over your shoulder saying "that's right". It's a big deal from a confidence standpoint, which is really what the workshops are about. After doing my bookend per the practice kit, i really didn't feel that I knew what I was doing, but after taking the workshop, it turned out I really did! i was rather hesitant after the practice kit, but ready to go for it after the workshop. You may be able to contact a local "EZ" builder or EAA chapter in your area to get the same confidence level... From: "Ron Alexander" Subject: COZY: composite video Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 07:49:31 -0400 Mr. Thomassin I am very sorry that you are dissatisfied with our video. We spent a lot of time and money creating what we think is a good overall review of composite construction. This is the first complaint we have had. We will be refunding your money. I would like for you to consider attending our composite workshop. We have had over 1500 people attend with 95% satisfaction. I think you would enjoy it and find it to be a learning experience. Sincerely, Ron Alexander SportAir Workshops