From: "Will Chorley" Subject: COZY: Bottom is Painted! Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:08:20 -0600 Thanks for all the help and advice when I asked about paining the bottom of my Cozy while I had it upside down. As we live in the environmentally sensitive Texas Hill Country, pump our own water and "treat" our own sewage I decided to try Polyfibre's new "environmentally friendly" water borne paint system. I though it might be useful to others to recount my experience so far with these products. For those who don't want to read on - it seems to work well - once you get used to it!! Polyfibre does warn those of you who are expert spray painters that you will have to unlearn some of the techniques you have learned with "conventional" solvent based paints, but for the novice like me that's not a problem! I used their Super Fil - great stuff, mixes easily, sands even easier, is very light - to get the big bumps out (just kidding!). Then I took Polyfibre's advice and rolled on the primer - no need for respirators and all that stuff - but this didn't work as well as advertised and I ended up sanding most of it off again. So then I got out my trusty Graco CX7 HVLP outfit that we had bought to spray waterborne "household" polyurethane all over the doors, cabinets etc. of the house when we built it and I used the same setup on the gun as I had for that job. It spayed like a dream! Three coats as per instructions, pinholes really did start to disappear just as advertised. This dried MUCH smoother than the rolled on version and hardly needed any sanding before putting on the UV Shield and a couple more coats of primer to form the base for the top coat. (You do need to wear a good respirator when spraying this stuff 'cause it will set up inside your lungs if you don't!) Then the fun really started - waterborne paint runs like crazy. For the inexperienced ( like me - apart from all those doors and cabinets) spray painter the dream turned into a nightmare - runs everywhere. I decided to sand off most of the first try at applying "Top Gloss" but that stuff is crosslinked and is TUFF! After much sanding, I got the runs out and called Polyfibre for some advice. Floyd, the expert there, was very helpful and said it was probably better not to really "flood" the paint on as per instructions but to put on several thinner coats. I did this - three coats in all, each made up of several light passes - waiting the prescribed time between coats, and it looked pretty good. However, my work was not over. When I came to buff it, I found it was not really flat enough so I ended up "colour sanding" most of it and then buffing. A lot of work, but the final result is worth it! Pity it's the bottom and will only be seen from a few thousand feet (I hope), but at least I was able to practice with the materials and get the measure of the job on the rest of the plane. It gets turned back onto its feet again next weekend and then . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Cleaning up is a dream, just fill up the gun with water and spray away! Clean up all those mixing sticks and paddles under the tap! Will From: "Tom Jacobs" Subject: COZY: UV protection Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:03:00 -0600 Here is a question I have not seen in the archives. What can you use for UV protection for small jobs? I am making repairs to wheel pants for another plane and don't have a supply of Silver Shield. (since I am not that far on the Cozy) Will the standard Zinc Chromate or Zinc oxide primer provide enough protection? If I bought some Silver Shield now, will it still be good in about 5 years? Thanks to everyone for a fine mailing list, archives, and FAQ. Most of my questions are answered before I even ask them. - --- -- Tom Jacobs tjacobs@madison.tds.net From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:06:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: UV protection Most finish systems suitable for the exterior, will provide adequate protection for UV. Check the technical information for the finish you plan to use. For one, the Ditzler Deltron system does. By system, I mean the primers, sealers, and top coats exactly per the manufacturer's instructions. From: Fritzx2@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:43:22 EST Subject: Re: COZY: UV protection Carl Denk wrote: > Most finish systems suitable for the exterior, will provide adequate > protection for UV. What spec supplied by the manufacturer specifies the level of UV protection? What is the level of minimally acceptable UV protection or is it one of those things that it either provides UV protection or it doesn't? Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:43:42 +0200 From: "Rego Burger" Subject: COZY: UV protection Most Paints today are UV stable... However because of the different wavelengths of the UV range it is known that with prolonged (all day ) exposure to sunlight the rays can get through even white paint and start attacking the epoxy ( without undercoat ). So the best thing is to make sure you use undercoat of a dark nature.... e.g. grey, green or black. The old days they insisted on carbon-black but it is heavy. In my mind the best under-coat or primers are "PLASTIC" etch primers...and not the metal-etch primers like zinc-chromate, but don't shoot yourself in the foot if you used it. Check out with your local auto body shops who do lots of glass cars like Corvett's etc... just don't tell them you're painting an aeroplane the price will go up by the square of your excitement. P.S. this "plastic-primer" is used on bumpers etc. too before they are painted. Naturally most of the guys in the USA can get what the plans specify so this idea is for those who can't get the "real thing" and at your own risk... Rego Burger RSA From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:31:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: UV protection On 02/18/99 22:43:22 you wrote: > >Carl Denk wrote: > >> Most finish systems suitable for the exterior, will provide adequate >> protection for UV. > >What spec supplied by the manufacturer specifies the level of UV >protection? What is the level of minimally acceptable UV protection >or is it one of those things that it either provides UV protection >or it doesn't? > > As far as I know, they just say they provide UV protection. THe actual numbers would be from either actual samples exposed to the atmosphere for some years, and a statement that the condition at the end of the time of the sample; or from ASTM specification for testd done in a test chamber that includes UV light, salt spray, heat/cold in various combinations. There is plenty of experience with our particular construction, and I am not aware of any significant damage due to weathering. Yes some finishes weather on the surface more than others creating more work in keeping nice looking. Depending on the weathering and how shiny you want it, and thickness of coating, somewhere years down the airway, the primer will appear, and its time to refinish. I think you are overly cautious (and NOTHING wrong with being that). Stick with one of several name brand finishes, use only the combination of primers, color coats and top coats if required, applied with good workmanship per the instructions and you will be happy for years. Check the archives for why I prefer Deltron, and NOT Imron. or ask and I'll send it direct. From: "Will Chorley" Subject: Re: COZY: UV protection Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:42:12 -0600 I have used Silver Shield on my plane (see posting on "The bottom is painted"). (You might ask why I put UV protection on the bottom, but I wanted to try out the complete Polyfiber system in a place that wouldn't matter too much if I made a mess! ) To get info on the paint, I suggest you call Polyfiber and ask for Floyd. He was most helpful when I experienced the odd little "oops" in trying out the paint process and I am sure he will give you any information you need about the paint. In the end the results are, I feel, "good", though a lot of elbow grease was expended. Now I know what I'm doing I'm going for "excellent" on the top side and wings! Hope this helps, Will From ???@??? Wed Mar 17 22:16:21 1999 Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id VAA21613 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA22041 for cozy_builders-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:41:03 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f Received: from sakaki.communique.net (sakaki.communique.net [204.27.64.202]) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA22034 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:40:58 -0500 Received: from communique.net (ppp-207-204-90-26.ne.communique.net [207.204.90.26]) by sakaki.communique.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11996 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:28:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36F05681.9F20E843@communique.net> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:27:29 -0600 From: "Joseph H. Hart IV" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cozy_builders@canard.com Subject: COZY: Do I have to save the finishing work for the end? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Joseph H. Hart IV" X-UIDL: 8e4124e49d9c362c22d74859ff753386 Fellow Builders: I am about to complete Chapter 7 (bottom and one side down, one side to go) and need to know whether there is any reason why I can't complete the landing brake and go ahead and finish the bottom up around to the sides a few inches. Obviously, I just mean final contouring and not painting as I will paint the entire plane at the same time. I am reaching a point where I need to slow down on the $$ for a couple of months but will still have time to work. As the finishing work is relatively cheap and, from what I've heard, not much fun, but necessary, I'd like to get some of it out of the way now. I know that I have to leave the forward six inches or so bare for attachment of the nose and that I can't go so far up the sides as to reach the point where the strakes are attached. However, can I go ahead and start on the bottom? Do I need an inspection of the bottom before final finish contouring? Any other issues that I need to consider? Thanks in advance for any advice. Jody Hart, New Orleans, Cozy Mk IV Chap. 7 see latest progress at: http://home.communique.net/~jodyhart/home.html From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:56:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Do I have to save the finishing work for the end? I built the strakes, finished the top of the strakes, and fuselage sides near ready for paint, rolled the plane upside down, and with the wings, and engine sometimes installed for making contours match, finished including paint and rub out all bottom surfaces and fuselage sides up (airplane right side up) to the mid-height full length paint stripe. Although it would be possible to blend Deltron and some other paints, I like the red stripe accent on the side. THen with the plane right side up, finished the rest of the plane. From: Epplin John A Subject: COZY: Contour and filling Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:59:16 -0600 Hi everybody I am about to order some material for filling and contouring. Hopefully won't need much. (he he) Have noticed several posts concerning Superfil Epoxy. Looking in Wicks, there is also a produce called Aeropoxy Light. I used Aeropoxy on my wings and canopy frame, turtleback and nose etc when the 2427 became a no-no. Was quite happy with it. I plan on ordering a kit of each to start with and see what happens. Anybody used both and care to comment. Any votes for West and microballons? I don't mind a little more cost at this point if it means a better job and/or easier and faster completion. Am getting some sort of fever or something, seeing what looks like an airplane sitting here about 90% done and only 90% to go! John Epplin Mk4 #467, Now officially N100EP! From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:37:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Contour and filling I have had many comments on the finish of my Cosy. Its all West and Micro ballons. Check the archives for my comments on finishing, there are may tips there. With almost 800 hours, its still looking well. Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 16:06:33 -0500 From: Gary Dwinal Subject: Re: COZY: Contour and filling Hi John, I have no experience with the Aeropoxy but I did use West System and micro to rough fill both of my wings and then started using Superfil on the rest of the plane. The Superfil is much, much easier and more consistent to work with. The Superfil is very easy to sand compared to the West / Micro. The Superfil costs around $120.00 for a three gallon kit but is well worth the money in my opinion. Good Luck, Gary Dwinal Epplin John A wrote: I am about to order some material for filling and contouring. Any votes for West and microballons? I don't mind a little more cost at this point if it means a better job and/or easier and faster completion. > John Epplin Mk4 #467, Now officially N100EP! From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:03:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Contour and filling Was said I wonder, if its soft, how will it hold up long term, does someone have more than 500 hours, and 5 years on it? Don't forget to fill the leading edges with flox, for protection from bugs and whatever. Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 00:36:26 -0800 From: "LCDR James D. Newman" Subject: COZY: Re: Contour and filling Hi John and All, > I am about to order some material for filling and contouring. Have noticed several posts > concerning Superfil Epoxy. I've tested several filling and contouring products (my plane looks like a calico cat) over the years. I really like the Super Fil by Poly Fiber [ (800) 362-3490, POC: Jon Goldenbaum ]. Only weighs about 3.68 lbs. per gallon when ready to smear on, is light blue, epoxy, and already correctly mixed with the appropriate amount of microballons. Just follow the FREE instruction booklet ( everyone should get this booklet! ). They have a FREE quart sample kit they will send you. Try it, you'll like it (and all their other products - see booklet)! I do mix in a little flox for all leading edges and around door openings to toughen it up. Have done that with ALL fillers I've ever used, not just Super Fil. HTH. Infinity's Forever, JD Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 10:09:40 -0500 From: Bulent Aliev Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Contour and filling Hi JD, I also mix some flox in the micro depending on the area.If it's subject to possible flexing and cracking I will ad flox accordingly. Regards Bulent "LCDR James D. Newman" wrote: > > I do mix in a little flox for all leading edges and around door openings to toughen it up. Have > done that with ALL fillers I've ever used, not just Super Fil. > HTH. > > Infinity's Forever, > > JD From: "John Slade" Subject: COZY: Chap 25 - finishing Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:08:03 -0400 I read a very interesting post in the archives by Tim LoDolce about use of Z-grip filler. Apparantly Rick Castalano used it in a finishing tutorial. I'd like an update. Is Tim still around the maillist? Anyone know his email? John Slade, Cozy Mk IV #757 jslade@kgarden.com/cozy From: SWrightFLY@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:43:39 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Chap 25 - finishing I have been using the "Cory Bird" method outlined in CP 77, page 4 to finish my Stagger EZ and compared to the "standard method" I used to finish my Varieze in the early 80s, I feel it is superior. Less effort and better results Step 1.....fill all over with west system dry micro Step 2.....sand with 36 grit to contour Step 3.....squeegee on pure west epoxy wait 6 hours squeegee another layer of epoxy wait 24 hours Step 4.....Wet sand with 100 grit Step 5 .....squeegee on pure west epoxy waite 24 hours Step 6.....Wet sand with 220 then 320 then 400 and shoot on a good epoxy color and your done. See me at my Nose Lift booth with Nat Puffer at S&F for details about this finishing system. See Y'all at Lakeland. Anyone comming by Nashville and would like to see my Stagger EZ ...let me know. Steve Wright From: alwick@juno.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:42:05 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Chap 25 - finishing On Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:43:39 EDT SWrightFLY@aol.com writes: >Step 3.....squeegee on pure west epoxy wait 6 hours >squeegee another layer of epoxy wait 24 hours What is purpose of pure epoxy in step 3 and 5? Is that to reduce pinholes? Seem to work? Thanks -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.91% complete. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From: alwick@juno.com Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 15:47:37 -0700 Subject: COZY: Product report...Superfil I filled and sanded the top half of my plane with normal epoxy/micro method. I purchased Superfil from Spruce for the bottom. Some observations: General: Superfil replaces West System/micro applied under primer. Superfil comes in 3 gallon kit. 1 gallon of part B, 2 of part A. Part A is colored light blue. Part B is off-white. Cured, the color is very light blue. Can be mixed by weight or volume. Advantages of Superfil: -It takes appx. 50 to 70% fewer sanding strokes to remove the excess fill. Real nice. -Superfil mixes appx. 2 to 3 times faster. You just combine 1 1/2 cups of part A with 1 cup part B and mix. -If it's applied when warm (appx. 70F or higher) it is appx. 30% less likely to lift from the glass surface when you squeegee it on. -I suspect it reduces the number of pinholes, but don't know for sure. Disadvantages of Superfil: -Much more sensitive to mix process. Very easy to end up with small areas where part A didn't mix with part B (operator error related). Fortunately, these areas are visible, as the two components are different colors. You just scrape away the defect and apply some properly mixed material. -unknown long term effects (adhesion). However, no negatives observed. Keys to success: Raise temp above 70F, mix thoroughly, mix thoroughly. FWIW -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.92% complete. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From: Fritzx2@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 23:13:13 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Product report...Superfil Al, Thanks for the report on Superfil. Having done both, for an equivalent thickness of both epoxy/micro or Superfil, I have 2 questions: 1. Can you quantify and compare the hardness off the surface of each. 2. If it is easier to sand, is it going to be more susceptible to damage later in service or is that something that you will have to wait and see. John Fritz fritzx2@aol.com From: anneandwill@att.net Subject: Re: COZY: Product report...Superfil Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:58:59 +0000 I used Superfil on the underside of my plane and agree that it is very easy to use and sand. I, too, am interested in it's hardness, especially when I get to filling the wing leading edges and other areas particularly exposed to impact. Maybe mixing in some flox with the Superfil would improve it's hardness, as, I believe, many people do when using the West system. Problem is, Superfil is so "filled" with micro already it might not be possible to mix in any flox and still get the stuff to spread. Might be better just using the West system with micro and flox where you really need a hard surface. I also used the PolyFiber water based paint system right through to top coat. The fully cross linked top coat appears to be extremely tough and very flexible. I did have a small adhesion problem betwen the primer and top coat initially, but the Polyfiber people told me to let it continue to "dry out" for a few weeks and re-test it. They were right! It seems it takes a good while for all the water, particularly in the primer, to dry out and until then it doesn't develop it's full adhesion. I would be very interested in the results of any more scientific tests on these products. Will > Good questions John. I was trying to think of ways I could objectively > measure hardness. But the more I think about it, hardness would likely be > meaningless measure. If there were hardness differences, there's no way I > could know if that characteristic was significant. Know what I mean? > Better to find way to measure adhesion. Probably the best measure would > be razor blade cross hatch and tape adhesion test done by painting > industry? > Some sort of impact test perhaps? I'll see if I can test further after > paint on piece of scrap material. > -al > > On Sat, 8 May 1999 23:13:13 EDT Fritzx2@aol.com writes: > > 1. Can you quantify and compare the hardness off the surface of > > each. > > 2. If it is easier to sand, is it going to be more susceptible to > damage later > > in service or is that something that you will have to wait and see. > > > > John Fritz > > fritzx2@aol.com > > -al wick > Canopy Latch System guy. > Artificial intelligence in Cockpit > Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.93% complete. > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From: Todd Carrico Subject: RE: COZY: Product report...Superfil Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:45:35 -0700 I did some work for a company that coated various materials with adhesive. These are admintingly not as aggressive as Epoxy, but the principles are the same. You test adhesive in Peel (180 Degree, or 90 Degree), or Shear. Basicly you pull on it until it fails and measure the amount of force to make it fail, or you hang X amount of weight on it until it comes apart and measure the amount of time. It is all comparison based so you would need to establish a base line. Hardness could be easily measured by making sveral peies of each, and press a 1" ball bearing (Something very round, and very hard). Press them in with the same "force". A hydraulic press with a 0 to 100 lb. gage would do nicely. Then you just measure the idiameter of the pression left in the sample. The smaller the impression the harder it is. Also, I suspect that too hard is as bad or worse than too soft. This is very simplified. You would need to control as many variables as possible. Could be tough. I sugest that we decide what are the most important aspects of filler. Is hardness really that important? IMHO I would say in this order: 1. Adhesion.....If it doesn't stay put it is worthless. 2. Longevity....If it doesn't last as long as the finish, or Ac. 3. Stability....If it grows or shrinks with age 4. Durability...If it takes impressions, or dings too Easily 5. Flexibality..If it doesn't flex as much as our structure 6. Workability..If we can't reasonably work with it I think that is a good place to start. tc From: FLYCOZY@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:41:23 EDT Subject: COZY: West System application Well guys, There are a few tips i would like to share with the group regarding the application of the West System. An oft encountered problem is not being able to get an even coat of fill on the part and still have it be thick enuf in one application. A friend of mine, Doug Koster, suggested that we use a dry wall mixing paddle I got mine at hHome Depot $ 10.00 anda half inch drill to mix the micro with the West System. We drilled a 1/2 inch hole in the lid of a CLEAN 5 gallon pail. I got my pail/buckets at a bakery ( an old frosting bucket). We then got things set up and ready to fill the top of a wing. 3 squirts of resin and 3 squirts of hardener was enuf to wet the surface with pure YOU MUST DO THIS STEP. Then dump 1/4 of a kit of resin 1/4 of the hardener into the 5 gal bucket. MAKE SURE THE DRILL IS READY AND PLUGGED IN, SQEEGY READY, BLOW DRYER PLUGGED IN AND READY, ETC. THIS PROCEDURE REQUIRES TWO PEOPLE, MINIMUM. Because you only have 20 minutes to get it spread.... While you are mixing the West System... the lid of the bucket needs to be between the drill and the mixture you have just rapily concocted in the bucket. The next item you will require is an underlayment trowel with a toothed edge. The teeth need to be about 1/8 of an inch deep... this allows the fill to be spread on the surface evenly, but it will be really ruff... the same roughness as the toothed trowel (of course). Then after it is mixed to about the consistency of cake frosting, like what you buy in a can, get it out of the bucket IMMEDIATELY AFTER IT IS MIXED, I MEAN THROW IT ON THE WING in big gobs.... Try not to mix it to fast as you also will mix air with it, the exothermic reaction take place quickly, you will notice the mixture is quite warm as you scoop it out of the bucket with the squeegy... you must, MUST, spread it quickly so it won't get too stiff and make it hard to spread with the smooth squeegy.... your buddy with the smooth squeegy and hair dryer will be following close behind the toothed trowel, smoothing out the ridges... the toothed trowel is necessary to allow the west system to be spread evenly and also thick enuf to fill the low spots. i even filled the really low spots prior to the big application. 5 inch smooth sqeegy works best for your buddy.... Don't try to get it too perfect or worry about the ridges.... after cure (@12 hours) use 36 grit and knock off the ridges and fill over any spots you think might be low. Then contour with 36 grit, smooth with 80, polish with 180, admire work. This method is not for the meek or week....... also before you do this throw out the nieghbors, the cat, the kids, and the wife if she won't help. This method of application is faster and results in a evener coat of west system and will result in a better finish... I used 6 kits of West System $ 108.00 per kit including shipping to fill the entire plane of coarce m ost if it was the floor or on everthing I own. Buy a Good mask to protect you health Paper filter and charcole in the same mask. Don't be afraid to ask questions!! SAND like a MANIAC Good Luck; Dennis Oelmann From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 05:03:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: West System application FlyCozy said I went the route of 6 or 8 thin coats of micro and didn't have any problems with pin holes. How were the pinholes with this method. Sounds interesting, but usually I didn't have the luxury of a helper for filling, and I'm not that much of a weight lifter. From: "RICK CAHILL" Subject: COZY: Polyfiber finishing process is evolving! Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:58:47 -0400 Greetings fellow canardians, for those of you who are so far along that you are thinking about painting youir airplanes by using the Poly Fiber water based polyurethane system, be advised of changes I learned about yesterday while talking with tech support. According to tech support, they are now advising that you use the same amount of crosslinker as the last coat throughout the finishing process, for all coats. They will ship you additional crosslinker as you need it to finish your paint process.This will allow better adhesion and a tougher skin for your paint. Tech suppost further advised that if you are done with the paint system, and have used the crosslinker per the directions in the applications manual,(You need to have this manual, to learn how to apply the paint!) That the paint already on the plane will be fine.the 800 number for Poly Fiber is 1-800-362-3490. Get the free manual about composite finishing system, and feel free to talk to tech support. They will bend over backwards to help you out. I found working with them to be a refreshing change.I hope to be at the Big O with 624RC in July, Rick Cahill, Columbus, Oh. From ???@??? Tue May 25 22:46:15 1999 Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id VAA21682 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 21:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (From ???@??? Tue May 25 22:46:15 1999 Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id VAA21682 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 21:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28432 for cozy_builders-list; Tue, 25 May 1999 19:48:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28426 for ; Tue, 25 May 1999 19:48:22 -0400 From: alwick@juno.com Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EBHNHS73; Tue, 25 May 1999 20:33:25 EDT To: cozy_builders@canard.com Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:30:33 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Polyfiber finishing process is evolving! Message-ID: <19990525.173034.-149583.0.Alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-8,10-15 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: alwick@juno.com X-UIDL: 555287cf21720127b79aa6515d7b9a58 They also have modified their primer sys to eliminate the separate UV application. Now UV protection is included in the primer. "Silver shield" is no longer used. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.94% complete. On Tue, 25 May 1999 12:58:47 -0400 "RICK CAHILL" writes: > to tech support, they are now advising that you use the same amount > of crosslinker as the last coat throughout the finishing process, > for all coats. They will ship you additional crosslinker as you need > it to finish your paint process. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:42:22 -0400 From: John Subject: Re: COZY: Interior Painting - Zolatone I just painted the interior of my plane with Zolatone and I would like to pass on some tips. Do prime first. I primed my interior with System Three primer and added some micro and blue tint to the mix. I brushed this mix on. The micro filled the weave a little and the blue tint was a nice background for the Bright Blue Zolatone. When spraying the Zolatone on you need to use something like a multipurpose sprayer with a pressurized can. The stuff is too thick to suck out and it can't be diluted. The paint dries tack free in about two hours but stinks for about three days. Scratch the edge of the masking tape before removing it if your looking for a nice line. John Vermeylen N69CZ Will Chorley wrote: > I am about to paint the inside of my plane and before I do I thought I'd > seek some additional advice from those who have gone before. From what I > have learned from the local folks, I do not need to apply the Zolatone > primer (also ACS say it's not needed over fiberglass - contrary, I might > say, to the Zolatone folks!), but need to "scuff the surface up a bit" with > 80 grit paper. Any other advice? How much "scuffing" is necessary? I know > that some people advise a light coat of fill so the weave of the cloth is > not so noticeable, I this really necessary? > > Thanking you in advance for you help, which is always welcome. > > Will Chorley From: alwick@juno.com Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:12:46 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Smooth Prime If you were seeking the "superfil", which is the microballoon replacement, it's best to order from wicks or spruce to save $30 per 3 gallon kit. It's great stuff if you are very thorough in mixing. I find that it is not particularly mix ratio sensitive, although others have reported differently. I think the average plane would use total of 6 gallons superfil. Smooth prime is the primer and can only be purchased directly from polyfiber at this time. By cooincidence, I just applied my first two of six coats of the new smooth prime uv product. I like it so far. No runs, easy to apply if you just use thin coats. I'm using 1 pint per coat to cover all bottom surfaces and sides. So it looks like 4 gallons is going to take care of entire plane... i think. They just bumped their price from $85 per gallon to $115, but you come out ahead because you no longer have to order their separate uv coat. It's real nice using a non-toxic product. Thanks to those who emailed info regarding their use of these products, I've been able to avoid any significant problems. Really appreciate the help guys. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.95% complete. On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:25:27 -0500 Epplin John A writes: > Where can I get Smooth Prime from? Wicks will not have it > till next > month, they say it is sold direct from the manufacturer. Someone > surely has > the phone or URL or address etc for it! > > Thanks > > John Epplin Mk4 #467 > > je25272@deere.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: alwick@juno.com Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:37:07 -0700 Subject: COZY: Fillets and radii I'm priming my plane now. Everything looks great except for most of my fillets and radii. What's the secret? Fillets: I have used a tube covered with sand paper to make fillets straight and consistant. However, the area where fillet transitions to flat surface is inconsistant. Is there a special tool or method? Radii: I keep ending up with small ridges which follow length of radius. Not a smooth curve. Appreciate all suggestions. I get one area looking good and then cause another to look bad. FWIW, I love this water base primer. So far virtually no pin holes to deal with. Sandable, water cleanup, no chemicals, easy to apply. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.95% complete. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: alwick@juno.com Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:36:31 -0700 Subject: COZY: pin hole hell I just completed painting the bottom of my plane. I've used the new poly fiber system. All water based. Very impressed. Pin holes are a total non-issue. Particularly when you use the Superfil instead of normal microballoons. Superfil is substantially better than micro. Trapped voids are rare. Sands easy, mixes easy. Areas where I used micro have more pinholes, but using the Smoothprime primer is highly effective at filling pinholes. It really does flow into holes. Must have low surface tension or something. I also elected to use their water based "topgloss" top coat (polyurethane). So far I really like it, but I have yet to color sand and buff the paint, so verdict is still out. I haven't done adhesion test yet. On my second coat (of three) of topgloss I got too aggressive and had quite a few runs on corner radius. I elected to sand the entire coat before applying my last coat. Final coat looks good, although areas have a matt appearance (too lean). No runs. The top coat appearance is quite sensitive to spray qty. More is better unless you develop runs. I had no problems with vertical surfaces. Lessons learned: - Don't need to use finer than 120 grit when sanding micro or superfil. The primer fills all those scratches fully. - use sanding stick only to achieve straightness, from that point on use electric random orbit sander (home depot $45) 220 grit. - Be willing to sand primer completely off to achieve uniform appearance. - Mix paint and primers 1 cup at a time to avoid splatter. I've heard people describe sanding and painting as the worst part of the process, but I enjoy it. It's great to see objects finally transformed into airplane like appearance. Just wanted you guys to know more about these new products. My superficial conclusions: Superfil micro replacement is way better. Smoothprime primer is way better. Topgloss top coat may not be better (lotta work)....we'll see when I'm further along. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: "John Slade" Subject: Re: COZY: pin hole hell Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:24:44 -0400 Al, Thanks for the post on finishing. I'm using Superfil, and plan to get some of their new uv prime. I was wondering how much the primer would cover. What type / make / model spray gun are you using? John Slade Cozy #757 http://kgarden.com/cozy From: alwick@juno.com Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:52:27 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: pin hole hell On Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:24:44 -0400 "John Slade" writes: > Al, > Thanks for the post on finishing. I'm using Superfil, and plan to get some > of their new uv prime. I was wondering how much the primer would cover. > What type / make / model spray gun are you using? > John Slade Cozy #757 http://kgarden.com/cozy > I ordered 4 gallons of primer for whole plane. 2 gallons of top coat for whole plane. Looks about right...hard to say. Priming all bottom surfaces and fuse sides consumed 1.25 gallons. I haven't primed wings. On a scale of 1 to 10, I am only trying to achieve a 5 on bottom surfaces. If you have greater ambitions 2 gallons primer for bottom would probably take care of things. Clearly any ol paint gun will prime your plane. They recommend using a roller. Very sandable. You apply 6 thin coats of primer and problably sand off 2 to 3. I used inexpensive conventional air gun, don't know the brand, it's been sitting around in my garage for years. They recommend you don't use HVLP for top coat. Have to admit I tend to discount the mfg's suggestions. They apparantly don't use modern methods to optimize the paint process. Don't order any materials til you need them. That way you will benefit from their latest formulations. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: anneandwill@att.net Subject: Re: COZY: pin hole hell Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 02:21:23 +0000 I had similar experience painting the bottom of my bird. Colour sanding is a fair bit of work, but after doing this and buffing I was very pleased with the results. 'Cuse I'm not flying yet so the whole paint me may yet peel off! I also had an interesting experience with Zolatone. I used their water based primer - runs like hell!! But after sorting out the runs applying the real stuff was a breeze! Will From: anneandwill@att.net Subject: Re: COZY: pin hole hell Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 02:26:47 +0000 I used a Graco HVLP gun we bought to do all the finish work on our house for all the stages of the Polyfiber process. We sprayed gallons of water based polyurethane with it on the house. Works well on planes too! In fact, if you look closely at the pictures in the Polyfiber instruction manual you'll see that's what they're using - even for the topgloss!! Will From ???@??? Fri Jul 09 20:56:30 1999 Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id XAA08216 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA09848 for cozy_builders-list; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:10:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f Received: from mail1.mia.bellsouth.net (mail1.mia.bellsouth.net [205.152.16.13]) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA09841 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:10:00 -0400 Received: from jslade (host-209-214-13-180.pbi.bellsouth.net [209.214.13.180]) by mail1.mia.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA18235 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <007101bec9b7$8d82a4a0$a824fea9@jslade.pbc.adelphia.net> From: "John Slade" To: "Cozy Builders Mailing List" Subject: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:02:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "John Slade" X-UIDL: 247a5cbd5d7c910aa5c4829fe6c87d6a Al, Wayne, >> I was wondering how much the primer would cover. >It is difficult to say how much you will need for you're project. >I ordered 4 gallons of primer for whole plane. I wasn't so much concerned about the amount of paint needed. It'll take what it takes. My question was referring to the types and depths of imperfections it will cover up. I dont know how picky to get with sanding the superfil til I see what the primer 'covers'. Any comments on the primer's ability to hide a multitude of sins? John Slade (carving the nose) Cozy MkIV #757 http://kgarden.com/cozy From: alwick@juno.com Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:00:25 -0700 Subject: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer On Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:59:51 -0400 "John Slade" writes: > Al, Wayne, > > My question was referring to the types and depths of imperfections > it will cover up. I dont know how picky to get with sanding the superfil til > I see what the primer 'covers'. > > Any comments on the primer's ability to hide a multitude of sins? > John Slade (carving the nose) Sorry, I misunderstood. You can count on the primer eliminating all normal scratches caused by 120 grit paper. That's about the best way to describe it. Really quite good. It doesn't cover any other discontinuities like dings, dips etc. Large pinholes are best eliminated with superfil, but you can use primer if you give it an extra shot of primer after you have done the rest of the surface. I wouldn't give a thought to pinholes until I applied the 1st coat of primer. They really show up then. Not too many if you use superfil micro stuff. I had a couple spots develop a crack after 1st couple coats of primer (1/8 diam area). Unknown cause. I dug them out, but left 1. It fills in with subsequent coats. No problem. If you have perfectly flat surface with 120 grit, you are good to go. You may have to sand off most of the primer and reprime worst case. But that's a piece of cake. It only takes a couple of hours to sand off all primer from bottom of fuselage. 80% of my surface defects are caused during the touchup phase. You know, I've sanded the micro, then found low spot, filled it but didn't resand it fully. Hope this helps, tough to describe these subjective things. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: "Will Chorley" Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:14:02 -0500 I had a few spots crack also when I sprayed on the primer. I found that they were over areas where the Superfil had not cured properly. I have not found a good way to ensure that the Superfil is completely mixed and have had a few soft spots as a result. ( I think they come from scraping that last little bit of Superfil from the pot and it doesn't get mixed properly around the edges.) You have to dig these out and re-fill them - another evening gone! The fact that the primer will crack over the soft spots is a good way to find any that you've missed!. Will From: alwick@juno.com Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:51:17 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer Will, I forgot to mention another important improvement. Your message reminded me. DON'T mix Superfil in a container. Use a piece of scrap wood to mix on. Sorta like a painters pallet. It works great, is reusable, and you don't end up with areas not mixed. I'm using a piece of impregnated wood (what do you call that stuff?) appx 4" x 8" x 3/4". Cut the edges square and sharp, it makes for easy scraping of the mix from you applicator. I'll never use a pot again. Totally eliminates the problem, no waste. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete. On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:14:02 -0500 "Will Chorley" writes: > had a few soft spots as a result. ( I think they come from scraping that > last little bit of Superfil from the pot and it doesn't get mixed properly > around the edges.) > Will > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: Epplin John A Subject: RE: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:44:58 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ugolini, Nick J [SMTP:UgoliniNJ@efdsouth.navfac.navy.mil] > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 6:52 AM > To: Cozy Builders Mailing List > Subject: RE: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer > > Tried to purchase the primer from ACS yesterday. They are not selling it > until sometime in August. Apparently, the company is "reformulating" the > primer again and is not allowing sales..?? Makes me wonder. > > Nick > N29TM > > [Epplin John A] Got some direct from Polyfiber about 10 days ago. They told me that they would have it on the dealers shelves the week of July 12. This week. Wicks told be the same thing about 3 week ago. You might give either one a call. The new stuff contains the UV blocker, eliminating this step. I am ready to try it, spent last evening touching up a few minor pin holes etc. I am only doing the bottom of one strake for the first shot, maybe not to smart but I want to try a small area first. John Epplin Mk4 #467 From: SWrightFLY@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:29:50 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer In a message dated 7/13/99 6:55:45 AM Central Daylight Time, UgoliniNJ@efdsouth.navfac.navy.mil writes: << Makes me wonder. >> I just selected the color for the Stagger EZ (bright yellow) by working with the same fellow who painted my Varieze 17 years ago (and the finish still looks good). He is the owner of a body shop and is a degreed chemist. He is aware of the water based primer and recommended I not use this material as a base for the PPG final coat. He thinks the future looks good that all coatings will be water based but he feels the present system will not hold up over time and that more research and development is needed .................his opinion. Steve From: alwick@juno.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:07:58 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer I am using the reformulated stuff. Love it! You buy primer and topcoat directly from Polyfiber. I just color sanded and buffed bottom of plane yesterday. Should be able to finish up today. It looks real good, only flaws are related to my not sanding perfectly flat during micro stage. So far I've been unable to find any problems with primer or topcoat material, but it's good to be cautious. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete. On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:52:02 -0400 "Ugolini, Nick J" writes: > Tried to purchase the primer from ACS yesterday. They are not > selling it > until sometime in August. Apparently, the company is > "reformulating" the > primer again and is not allowing sales..?? Makes me wonder. > > Nick > N29TM ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: "Ugolini, Nick J" Subject: RE: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:38:18 -0400 Just got off the phone with poly fiber..... I am planning to try their filler and primer (for pin holes) on my baggage pods. Here are some answers to my questions: The filler takes about 8 hrs to dry to begin sanding. You have to allow 2 days to fully dry before using the Smooth Prime. Smooth prime need about 2 hrs between coats. Sand in 2 hrs. Allow 8 hours before top coating with your chosen finish. I told him I will be using PPG (my favorite) finish. He told me NO PROBLEMS using a polyurethane finish over their primer.... I will use the wet on wet technique for the PPG as specified in their technical bulletins. Shoot a wet coat of primer and before it dries (about 30 min) you shoot your finish coat. The primer coats the surface (even color and base attachment) and then the top coat. I have used it many time is the past and works great. I believe in PPG. I painted my canard (550 hrs no rain erosion) and prop (300+ hrs) and both still look as good as the day I buffed them out. Much easier to shoot than Imron. Nick -----Original Message----- From: George A. Graham [mailto:ca266@freenet.buffalo.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 10:35 AM To: SWrightFLY@aol.com Cc: cozy_builders@canard.com Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 SWrightFLY@aol.com wrote: " he feels the present system will not hold up > over time and that more research and development is needed > .................his opinion. > Steve > Steve, I think your painter is full of --it. My opinion... George Graham RX-7 Powered Graham-EZ, N4449E Homepage From: alwick@juno.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:26:47 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:29:50 EDT SWrightFLY@aol.com writes: > looks good). He is the owner of a body shop and is a degreed > chemist. He is aware of the water based primer and recommended I not use this > material as a base for the PPG final coat. He thinks the future looks good that all > coatings will be water based but he feels the present system will not hold up > over time and that more research and development is needed > .................his opinion. > Steve Steve, did he provide any details, or is he just speculating based upon his experience? Well, anyway, glad you posted this. It prompted me to do cross hatch adhesion test. My polyfiber paint has finally had 6 days to fully cure. For those not familiar, 90% of all paint failures are due to poor adhesion (either interlayer, or more often substrate adhesion). The best test for this is cross hatch test. You take razor blade and score thru the paint layers all the way into substrate. I no longer have astm test procedure available, but the details aren't all that important. I cut 6 parallel lines, appx. 1/10 inch apart. Then cut 6 more at right angle. Looks like a tic tac toe board. Then you apply sticky tape, press firmly, then pull off at moderate speed. Duct tape works fine (and represents a severe test). If any paint pulls off, you have problem. I passed the test. No paint pulled off. Good news. Doesn't say much about whether it's compatible to ppg. A note for the techno guys in the group: I think you'll find a direct correlation of the above test to the official astm test. Poor adhesion is eager to show, and is evident regardless of how close you follow astm procedure. Well, back to color sanding for me. I have found that to be the key factor in finish appearance. Two hours of color sanding the bottom is not enough. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: SWrightFLY@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:48:00 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer In a message dated 7/13/99 12:37:29 PM Central Daylight Time, alwick@juno.com writes: << Steve, did he provide any details, or is he just speculating based upon his experience? >> Just speculating........... From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:00:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer I'll go further, only use a complete system of coating, THe manufacturer of the top coat, knows best what will make it perform best. Re PPG, for Deltron, they recommend an epoxy seal (bond) coat. Definately don't use a laquer base primer/sealer, there just isn't the bond. It all looks well, but when push comes to shove, like bugs hitting at 200 mph, what happens. There isn't that much savings in money or time to do it right, why fight the flow! Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:08:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "George A. Graham" Subject: COZY: Let the painter choose. In haste to save the damsel-in-distress, I overlooked the obvious. If you hire a painter, and they have the tools and know-how to use a paint, then for certain let them call it. However, if you are going to learn painting in your house or garage, then I say have a look at the Smooth Prime & Top Gloss. I did order a System III tryout package, which was well done, but the paint was garbage. George Graham RX-7 Powered Graham-EZ, N4449E Homepage From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:52:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Let the painter choose. I disagree, stick with one manufacturer for an entire finish system, and the instructions that come with it. Insist the professional does that. A major manufacturer like Ditzler, Dupont, etc. does considerable testing to minimize their liability. Refinishing a composite aircraft is very difficult at best, why for such small savings of time and money gamble. Fly to Reno instead. From: Lee810@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:50:56 EDT Subject: COZY: Water based paints I have seen so many postings extolling the virtues of water-based paint products on this forum that I can't take it anymore. I feel that the MOST IMPORTANT measure of a paint's performance is its ability not to begin popping off the plane after several years of flying. You really should fly your plane for several years before trying to convince others on how great these newfangled paint products are. The last thing I want to hear is gushy statements about ease of use and reports of salesmen saying 'no problem' on long term adhesion characteristics to various primers. I have read enough horror stories about recalls and reformulations on these water-based paints that I don't think I'd use them even if I got the materials for free. My plane (painted with Imron) has enough paint coming loose after 5-10 years that I can't imagine how someone with several weeks of experience with a new product can in good conscience get on this forum and attempt to convince everyone of its superiority. Having said that, I do admire your adventurous spirit and would be happy to hear of your experiences AFTER you've flown these paints for several years. Lee Devlin Greeley, CO Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:58:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "George A. Graham" Subject: Re: COZY: Water based paints On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 Lee810@aol.com wrote: I do admire your adventurous spirit and would be happy to > hear of your experiences AFTER you've flown these paints for several years. > My bird has sat outside, through our normal brutal winter weather. I've scraped the ice off, and "banged" it off when it was too thick to scrape. I flew it every day when possible, in temps as low as 10 deg F., in rain and through bugs. Nary a crack or a blemish. I know that those of you who fought the pin holes, do have reason to be jealous of we whose daring adventurous spirit allowed us to try something new. Some of you were even willing to make a their own propellor using a new method and materials, now that is adventurous! George Graham RX-7 Powered Graham-EZ, N4449E Homepage Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:04:43 -0500 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: Water based paints Lee, I tried System Three several years ago and never went beyond the primer stage. That stuff may have worked on boats, but it didn't on airplanes. (or I never learned how to use it) I think, though, the technology of water based paint has improved significantly- mostly because of federal rules. I do believe it is the only legal auto paint in California today and as a result GM cars are painted with a water base product that is heat cured. I haven't seen documentation on the process, but I do know my '99 GM auto is gorgeous and the salesman said it is a water based product. The problem for we homebuilders, I think, is getting water base paint to dry in a reasonable time. Water, it seems, does not leave the surface as quickly as the harmful solvents that have been used for years. I used Dupont's base coat/clear coat on my airplane and that stuff dried quick, but is very toxic. One must wear a mask and be ventilated. Finishing and painting an airplane, IMHO, is a minor night mare. Many of us simply do not have the skill, set up, and in my case patience, to do first rate job. We built, fill, sand, fill, sand, and the hangar or garage is now the least suitable place on the planet to paint because of all the dust. I did a very thorough job of cleaning my hangar and hosing it down each time before painting, but there was some dirt present in the air always. I even built a tent with a fan for ventilation and it seemed to matter not. When you look at the paint set up in any auto repair shop, you know how difficult it is to control dirt. My wife and friends say the airplane looks great - and it does from 10 feet - but I've been up close and know every shiny speck on it. dd From: "Wilhelmson, Jack" Subject: RE: COZY: Water based paints Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:21:36 -0400 Lee: Your reply to all this stuff about water based paint is RIGHT ON! I too have been through the mill with various primers and paints. The true test is how is it hanging in there after two or three years. I would not recommend any primer paint system unless I had at least two years and 200 hrs of flying time on it. Most new builders have not had the experience of having the paint slowly release over a period of years causing continuous repair to keep the airplane looking good or stripping the whole aircraft down to the micro layer and starting over. Jack Wilhelmson N711cz. From ???@??? Thu Jul 15 22:36:19 1999 Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id SAA26841 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA00959 for cozy_builders-list; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:21:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00954 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:21:12 -0400 From: alwick@juno.com Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EFLQTTJY; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:14:21 EDT To: cozy_builders@canard.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:11:17 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Water based paints Message-ID: <19990715.151118.-171437.1.Alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,7,12-13,15,19-27,29-30 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: alwick@juno.com X-UIDL: d7c7e01760dd7380c254189b686df06b Lee,Jack, your point well taken. We don't have much long term info. I'm not a paint expert, but have done some designed experimentsFrom ???@??? Thu Jul 15 22:36:19 1999 Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id SAA26841 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA00959 for cozy_builders-list; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:21:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00954 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:21:12 -0400 From: alwick@juno.com Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EFLQTTJY; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:14:21 EDT To: cozy_builders@canard.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:11:17 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Water based paints Message-ID: <19990715.151118.-171437.1.Alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,7,12-13,15,19-27,29-30 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: alwick@juno.com X-UIDL: d7c7e01760dd7380c254189b686df06b Lee,Jack, your point well taken. We don't have much long term info. I'm not a paint expert, but have done some designed experiments on paint adhesion and been involved with a company that did class 1 painting. There may be rare exceptions, but if you have adhesion problems, it likely occurred when you painted it. It just shows up later due to vibration, flex etc. The cross hatch test is an excellent way to verify adhesion is ok. If you pass it, you will be ok years later (provided test area saw same prep as the rest of the plane). Personally, I'm very grateful for the guys who posted their PRELIMINARY analysis of the water base paints. I would not have considered them otherwise. I learned a lot and had no difficulties during application due to their sharing. For my part, THANKS for sharing and keep those cards and letters comin! I'm quite pleased that my water based paints passed the cross hatch adhesion test. I just LOVE my water based paints...and golly gee, that Superfil is great!...Darn, I started gushing again. You know, that Insignia white also makes for a great mouthwash. Wow does it whiten teeth! And no harmful chemicals! -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete. On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:50:56 EDT Lee810@aol.com writes: > The last thing I want to hear is gushy > statements about ease of use and reports of salesmen saying 'no problem' on > long term adhesion characteristics to various primers. > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: "Will Chorley" Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:58:17 -0500 I can' t believe that we are the only people trying to use these water based products! Maybe we should be asking outside of our closed group to see who else has used these paints and how long they have been flying and what their experience has been. I believe that Polyfiber has been developing this system for some time and has only recently made it generally available. I also heard that Europa Aircraft have used the system and, if this is true and they used it on their demonstrator, it seems to stand up well - even in the Florida sun! The main problems that I had applying it were its tendency to run. My first try with the primer was a disaster on any vertical surface and I had to sand most of it off. Because of this, it is very difficult to get a really smooth finish with the top coat so the need for colour sanding is almost a dead cert! It took me about 10 hours to colour sand the bottom of my plane to a point I was happy with it using 1000, 1500, and 2000 grit wet. After buffing, I think it looks pretty good - got lots of compliments from others as well so it can't be too bad! Keep sanding! Will From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:00:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer Was said <10 hours to colour sand the bottom of my plane> Took me about 2 hours (less than 1 evening) to do the Deltron bottom of mine including buffing, etc to a high gloss, and that was the first time I worked with Deltron, improved much next area. From: mikefly@juno.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:21:57 -0500 Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Polyfiber primer On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:14:02 -0500 "Will Chorley" writes: >I had a few spots crack also when I sprayed on the primer. I found >that >they were over areas where the Superfil had not cured properly. I >have not >found a good way to ensure that the Superfil is completely mixed and >have >had a few soft spots as a result. ( I think they come from scraping >that >last little bit of Superfil from the pot and it doesn't get mixed >properly >around the edges.) I have been mixing superfil on a piece of cardboard, with a putty knife. Using a scrape, fold & pull motion, I can mix thoroughly & squeeze out air. Application is with a 5" drywall blade, which also tends to squeeze air out and has less tendency to drag at the edge. mbb From: Wayne Hicks Subject: COZY: UV Protection Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:35:46 -0400 Is there any reason to spray the UV coating on the underside of the wings and fuselage? ____________________________________________________ L. Wayne Hicks Space Operations Division Sr. Engineer Zel Technologies, LLC 757-865-0900 phone 3221 North Armistead Ave 757-865-8960 fax Hampton, VA 23666 http://www.zeltech.com From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:49:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: UV Protection What paint needs a separate UV coating, Most (Ditzler, Dupont, etc.) have that when you follow their system, i.e. a sealer, primer, or bond (same thing different names) coat and top coats (either clearcoat or single coat). Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:58:22 -0400 From: "Marc J. Zeitlin" Subject: Fwd: COZY: UV Protection Wayne Hicks asks; >Is there any reason to spray the UV coating on the underside of the wings >and fuselage? No. And there's apparently no reason to do the top, either. Check the archives - I believe that we've had this discussion and been told by those who know better that any paint with solids in it (which is any paint) will block the UV. This implies (or at least I infer) that no seperate UV blocker is required as long as you paint the plane. -- Marc J. Zeitlin mailto:marcz@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~marcz/ From: Epplin John A Subject: COZY: Fill & finish, pressure washing Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:46:05 -0500 Have been working on the fuse bottom for a month now trying to get it primed. Many interruptions, OSH and all. I made mention of my status at a local chapter pot luck over the weekend. I said I was going to wash it down and start the Smooth Prime process, getting tired of fussing around with small details. Someone suggested I use a high pressure washer. Thought about this for a bit and decided this was a good idea. I have a small one, not enough pressure to destroy anything. I rolled the ship out, on jacks, upside-down, and sprayed away. What an awakening! I found there was about a half zillion bubbles in the Super-Fill I used for fill and contour. Just wiping the surface was not getting the sanding dust out of the small ones so they sort of stayed hidden. I had used a shop vac many times and found larger ones but not the small ones that appeared now. This was put on for the most part at a temperature of 90+, don't know if this contributed to the bubbles or not. I let everything set out in the sun, was a beautiful day here, sunny and dry. After it dried, I mixed a small amount of Super Fill and worked it all over the surface using a steel drywall trowel, the idea was to not add any thickness, just fill the holes. The process seemed to work pretty good, using a lot of pressure on the tool. After the stuff hardened, sanded with a flexible sanding board, did not take long, and now things look really good. I will get to priming soon, have several other commitments for the rest of the week but will get a little time to start, I hope. The Smooth Prime may have filled most of these if the dust would float out, don't know but I feel a lot better knowing I have got rid of all that I could. John Epplin Mk4 #467 Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:31:38 -0400 From: Robin & Steve Subject: COZY: Inside corner radii - get 'em just right, for what it's worth Someone once said man is born with a specific amount of sanding in his body. When consumed - that's it , there ain't no more. I have depleted my reserve. Anyway, I believe it was Al Wick who requested ideas on getting the "perfect" inside corner radius (excuse me Al if it wasn't you, those damaged brain cells from the early 70's you know), I think I have stumbled (literally) onto an idea that seems to work for us. Using one of those spring type tubing benders (we are using the one for 5/8" tube - Wicks #100-5/8 page 74 Catalog 1999) with a piece of adhesive backed sand paper - course grit to start, or similar, wrapped around the spring seems to work nicely. You can flex the spring giving a place to hang on and rub away. The radii we have made look pretty nice, not too bad on the hands either. For those who are getting to that point, past that point but aren't happy with their results, those who have yet to consume their sanding reserve and just want to sand to sand, you may want to give it a try. As I said, for what it's worth. -- Steven D. Sharp cozyiii@earthlink.net ICQ#: 9925394 Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 19:05:52 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: Color Trim Web Sites Some time ago I asked where folks found graphic decal kits to decorate their airplanes after the "sticker shock" (pun sort of intended) for getting custom decals made locally. I received many helpful suggestions, but had little luck finding a decent local source. So, I went cruising on the internet and dug up the following sites. I hope some of you can find them useful. I ended up ordering a kit from the first one, Auto Trim Express. They don't sell direct, but were very happy to mail me a catalog along with some small material samples. A call to them linked me with a distributor in Portland, Oregon (I told them I was in the airplane manufacturing business) and for $35, I had a 3" by 120" kit. Applying it was a snap after reading some of the application tips located on a few of these sites. Using a spray solution of water and isopropyl alcohol allowed me to get it positioned just right. Thanks again to those that initially responded and got me started. Here they are: http://www.autotrimexpress.com/ http://www.stripeman.com/ http://www.phoenixgraphix.com/custom.htm http://customautotrim.com/products/graphics.htm http://www.u-p.com/Strifmst.html http://www.prostripe.com/ http://www.lbgraphics.com/ Eric Westland Cozy Mark IV N325PD Mukilteo, WA Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 21:37:41 -0400 From: "L. Wayne Hicks" Subject: COZY: How much Superfill for Canard? How much Superfill I should order to fill and sand my canard? Wayne Hicks Cozy IV #678 Chapter 18 http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/2027 From: alwick@juno.com Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:07:13 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: How much Superfill for Canard? I'd guestimate that 2 qts would be adequate. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr 101% complete. On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 21:37:41 -0400 "L. Wayne Hicks" writes: > How much Superfill I should order to fill and sand my canard? > > Wayne Hicks > Cozy IV #678 ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: "John Slade" Subject: Re: COZY: How much Superfill for Canard? Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:36:03 -0400 Wayne, If your canard is fairly smooth then one "kit" will probably do it. Two at most. The technique is to do a first coat which fills the weave and nothing more. Put it on, then squeege it off as much as you can. Regards, John Slade Cozy #757 (chap 11) progress: http://kgarden.com/cozy -----Original Message----- From: L. Wayne Hicks To: cozy_builders@canard.com Date: Sunday, September 05, 1999 10:09 PM Subject: COZY: How much Superfill for Canard? >How much Superfill I should order to fill and sand my canard? > >Wayne Hicks >Cozy IV #678 >Chapter 18 >http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/2027 > From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:44:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: COZY: Deltron Paint Purchased a small quantity of Deltron at my favorite local store today. They told me Deltron is getting phased out, with the DAU-2 catalyst being first. The recommended I transition to Concept 2002. The DT??? reducers will continue to be used by the new product. Note that there is also a Concept 2001 line of coatings that is getting phased out also. Make sure the new is the Concept 2002. As far as I can tell other than a different name, the 2002 will have the same nice features including easy invisible repairs. From: FLYCOZY@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 21:30:01 EDT Subject: COZY: Re. finishing / croming I am nearing compleation of cozy Mark IV N92VT. Last week I was working on fitting the spinner which I purchased from Brock. I felt the spinner was of high quality, " its a bullet spinner " and making the cutouts for the 3 blade performance propeller was quite simple. It took me about four hours to cut out the prop holes and get the required clearances and polish the cutouts. I would recomend the brock spinner to anyone putting one on their Cozy. I liked this spinner better than the one I had on my Cozy 3 place because the holes were pre drilled through the spinner base into the flow guide around the prop extension. This made the spinner wobble proof because it was done while both parts were still in the mill. I recently replaced the spinner on my 3 place cozy because of a crack with a spinner with a slight wobble in it. It had 350 plus hours on it. I purchased that spinner from another builder I'm not sure who made that one, but I never did like the wobble that it had. ! So after installing two spinners within two weeks I feel like I'm a pro. but I still had to polish them both and I was'nt looking forward to that. So I started checking around who does crome plating of aluminum. I found a place within 100 miles of where I live that does this process . A.I.H. CROME PLATING in Dubuque, Iowa phone 319- 582-8235 ask for Russ cost was $ 105.00 for each spinner. They said they do a lot of spinners and I thought the price was reasonable. Somebody said a few months ago why don't the guys who have built before put more information on the builders home page. I can't answer for them but I've been busy building. I used 6 kits of west system to fill and contour the entire Mark IV most of which ended up on the floor. I used Rinson Mason High build primer. This stuff fills a 36 grit scratch!! Final top coat was P.P.G. concept 2000 urathane DAU 2 . Toyota White it looks fabulious!!! I started filling on April 20 and I put the top coat on July 16. 700 hrs. sanding. HARD WORK... By the way Doug Koster I have'nt forgotten the steak dinner you owe me !!! He bet me I could'nt get it finished in less than 2 months. I'm sold on the west system and urathane paint the finish on my cozy 3 looks as good as it did 12 years age when I finished it. Except for the normal scratches ya always get when ya use them. I've been hearing that a lot of builders are useing this water base paint systems. My good friend Tim Merrill Grand Champion 96 experimented with this stuff 5 years ago and he abandon the Idea and used urathane paint. Thats what all the award winners are using. I chose to go with the flow. If ya get the drift don't inhale. My opinion only, water dase reminds me of kindergarten and water base mess. just my thoughts for the evening. Dennis Oelmann From: alwick@juno.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:11:33 -0800 Subject: COZY: canard ridge Is the painted canard supposed to have a ridge on bottom side? The template shows one, but I always thought that the ridge was intended as a lap point for the glass layer. I want to paint my plane tomorrow, but not if that ridge isn't sposed to be there. thanks!! -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr 106% complete, Aug 00 first flight sched.. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: "Capps Family" Subject: COZY: Working with PolyFiber and Paint Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 23:10:25 -0600 To All, I received this email via third party, I feel the group would be interested in the topic. READ ON: One of the guys in our EAA chapter(Bernie Wilder) has "re-invented" the painting process working with PolyFiber while painting his Pulsar. As he told us, there had to be a better way than the never ending prime, sand, prime, sand, and paint and then sand and prime some more.....He started experimenting using paint rollers (he took a very scientific approach to the problem) and found out how many layers it would take and how much sanding was needed(very little for the prime coats). We had a chapter meeting at his home and his Pulsar looked like it had a porcelain smooth finish. He also found out that you could mix the UV protector with the primer. The company has basically taken his ideas and incorporated his processes (they did name the process after him and if you were at Oshkosh during the composite painting forum, they gave him all the credit). I have attached a few of his e-mails with his permission that discuss some of his thoughts. Bernie Wunder Lexington Park, MD bwunder@tqci.net kr2s plans in hand .------------------------------------ Bernie Wilder E-mails: Smooth Prime usually causes people no problem, mainly because it is easy to sand down smooth after you get some unevenness. TopGloss is different. You must spray differently than you do the paints with a flash solvent. You must use light coats,,,I put on four light coats and then color sand and polish. ((You must color sand and polish this stuff if you have the level of skills that I have. Maybe a professional who has mastered water bornes could get a good enough final coat,,,I can't.)) Also, Top Gloss works best with a high pressure system. Atomizes the paint better, and if you don't get it atomized, you can't control it. I had never sprayed the flash solvent stuff, so I didn't have to unlearn an old technique. Just learn the new one. If they try to apply water bornes like solvent based paints, they will fail. Guys better learn to use the water bornes because it won't be long before you won't be able to ship the solvent based stuff through normal channels - - like UPS, motor freight, etc. They require shipment as hazardous materials now,,,wait until it gets tighter. The military uses a lot of water bornes now and I am told will eventually require all military painting to be done with the environmentally friendly water born paints. --------------------- Another tip from Bernie Wilder: > After applying TopGloss and letting it set for a week, I began wet color > sanding by hand. A bucket of water, a sponge, rubber sanding block and > away we go........After a bit I thought there must be a better way. > > I bought a DeWalt palm sander. A bucket of water, a sponge, a DeWalt sander > and away we go........It worked fine. > > BUT>>>>>>The sander burnt out in short order. > > I visited the local Mom and Pop auto painting shop and asked how they > color sanded. > > A "Windex" spray bottle, an air powered sander and away they > went........Don't put the water on with a sponge they said, just spray on > enough with a Windex bottle to keep it wet. Works as well and less mess, > they said. > > I didn't want to go the air powered route so I took another look at the > burnt out palm sander to see what went wrong. I thought maybe that if I > plugged the holes where the sander sucks off the dust, maybe the water > wouldn't get into the bearings of the sander and it would hold up. > > I bought another DeWalt sander and plugged the holes with silicon caulking > compound. I got an old Windex bottle, filled it with water and went at it > again. As the Egyptians say, "NooooooooooooProblem". The sander has held > up. Color sanding is easy, though it takes a little time. It is worth it! ---------------- and other one: It is conventional wisdom that all fillers for composites settle over > time,,,PolyFiber's UVSmooth Prime amongst them. Polyfiber is working on > alternative material to minimize this but they are not available yet, nor > probably in the near term. > > How much the settling of the filler ultimately shows is relative to the > differential thickness of the filler on the surface of the panel. How fast > they settle is still an open question. I am confident that the speed of > settling is not linear but that it settles fast at first and the rate then > decreases and, if plotted, becomes an asymptotic line. Heat accelerates > the settling (actually shrinking), but you can't put your plane in an 150 > degree oven over night. If applying just UVSP, I would wait at least two > months after applying UVSP before sanding it down for the top coat. > > My advice has been to prime early and don't try to rush it. > > I found myself in a position where I wanted to rush it with my wings and > tried an alternative material that worked - also made by PolyFiber,, the > Superfil that we all use to fill larger holes. ((Superfil is very stable > and doesn't shrink.)) > > I tried several samples to come up with the following procedure: > > I applied a layer with a three inch putty knife, forcing it into the > surface with the blade held quite flat against the surface. I didn't try to > wipe it off the surface, just force it in and left a layer about 1/8" thick > on the surface. I went right back over the surface with the putty knife > with the blade held at about a 45 degree angle and wiped all off the > surface that I could. I did one three inch strip at a time. I found it > important to move the knife slowly for both the initial coating and when > wiping the first layer off the surface. It doesn't look as if there is much > left on the surface,,,but if you really pushed it into the surface on the > first application, there is enough. > > I let it dry overnight and then applied a guide coat of black lacquer. I > sanded the surface down smooth using 80 grit paper. ((Yes, that is pretty > rough stuff.)) I was careful to not sand too much. After sanding it looks > as if there is even less material on the surface. There was enough. In > fact, some of the Superfil seems to go into the surface of the cloth fibers > themselves giving you an overall harder surface. > > I applied four sprayed coats of UVSP and waited to see if I was going to > get any differential settling that would show the pattern of the composite > cloth. ((The initial settling will show up in a week or so.)) > > After a month, the surface has remained free of any settling that shows a > cloth pattern,, indicating that the Superfil left me with a flat surface. > > Disadvantage - it is more work than rolling or spraying on six coats of > UVSP. > > Advantage - I don't have to wait two months to be sure the UVSP has > finished settling. ------------------------------------------ and another! You can do it ! ! I have applied the Top Gloss using > HVLP, high pressure, roller and brush. Forget roller and brush. High > pressure system works better than the HVLP system for the old Top Gloss. > This is how I painted my fuselage, tail surfaces and flaps ands ailerons. I > will be applying the new TopGloss in about a week to my wings and will try > it with both high pressure and HVLP systems and can give an opinion then. > Polyfiber says the new TopGloss sprays better with a high pressure system > than a HVLP system. They also say it is a little thicker, so I want to > determine which is best for myself. All other things being equal, I prefer > a HVLP system. Less over spray hence fewer particles flying around the > workshop and it uses 25-30% less paint. > > Problems - Only problem I have heard of is that if the Smooth Prime isn't > given enough time to completely dry and settle, the weave pattern will show > up in the surface of your TopGloss when it does. How long has the Smooth > Prime been on the plane?????????? > > You must color sand and polish to get a good finish. After doing that, the > finish is deep and a water surface. Like a hand rubbed finish on a show > car. But, you have to color sand and polish. I use a power palm sander and > power polisher and it goes quite well. > > To overcome the settling, Polyfiber says to put on the TopGloss, don't > color sand and polish for about a month or two to give the Smooth Prome a > chance to settle. They say to go fly off your 40 hours, then color sand and > polish. I prefer to let the Smooth Prime settle for a month or so before > putting the Top Gloss on. What you do, I guess, depends upon where you are > in the process. If you just put the Sandwich on, you probably don't want to > wait a month or so to do the final sanding and apply the TopGloss. If you > follow their advise, put on an extra coat or so of TopGloss because in a > couple months when you color sand to get the weave patptern out, you will > be removing some of the Top Gloss. > > Indecently, all primers and fillers settle, even the ones that are solvent > based. It doesn't make any difference what kind of top coat you use, or who > applied it, if the underlying materials settle into the weave, you will see > weave pattern in the surface of the paint. ((Even under a $5,000 paint > job.)) > > I recommend doing it yourself and the use of TopGloss. Saves a lot of > money. You'll get a lot of satisfaction out of doing it yourself. AND, you > will be one of the few who can say," I built it and I even painted it!". > > You can do it in your garage. You will want to be able to vent air from > your garage because even with the HVLP system, you will get more particles > in the air than you will want to let settle on the finish. ((Although if > you get a lot of particles settling on the paint, color sanding and > polishing takes care of them.)) I used a painters respirator, the kind that > have two round filters on the side of the mask. > > To clear the air out of a windowless garage, I raised the garage door the > height of my fans, I used two window fans, put them on one side of the > door, blocked off the center section and left an open area on the other > side of the door as an input. The air came in one side, went around in a > circle in the garage and out the other side of the door. Worked fine. > > I wouldn't recommend painting outside unless the weather is hot, low > humidity, there is no wind, and there is no dust or pollen in the air. If > you find such a place, let me know, I want to move there. Some people have > built temporary tents outside out of 2X2s, covered the framework with > plastic and stuck a fan or two in openings. > Hope the above helps. Larry Larry A. Capps #829 Naperville, IL capps@mediaone.net From: alwick@juno.com Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 15:23:56 -0800 Subject: Re: COZY: Working with PolyFiber and Paint I just completed painting my fuselage and most of my wings. Love this stuff. Can't believe how good it looks, yet my little goof ups show as you would expect. The suggestions below appear right on. Except I had great luck w/o using hvlp and no roller. Nice of you to share this info Larry. -al On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 23:10:25 -0600 "Capps Family" writes: > To All, > > I received this email via third party, I feel the group would be > interested > in the topic. > > READ ON: > > One of the guys in our EAA chapter(Bernie Wilder) has "re-invented" > the > painting process working with PolyFiber while painting his Pulsar. > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.