From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:17:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: COZY: Fueling - Static Electricity Some time ago, I sent a message to the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) (The main research, testing, and code organization for fire safety). Here in its entirety is my message and their response. I haven't checked the wording of their reference yet, but this would be the most authoritive source there is. They have a web site referenced below. ------Begin forward message------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from eagle.nfpa.org (eagle.nfpa.org [12.16.75.98]) by ixmail8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7/(NETCOM v1.01)) with SMTP id HAA09018; for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:34:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901281534.HAA09018@ixmail8.ix.netcom.com> Received: from nfpa.org by eagle.nfpa.org via smtpd (for ixmail8.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.68]) with SMTP; 28 Jan 1999 15:37:19 UT Received: from 10.0.2.97 by nfpa.org with SMTP (QuickMail Pro Server for MacOS 1.1.1r1); 28 JAN 99 10:09:00 UT Date: 28 Jan 99 10:03:10 +0000 From: Mark Conroy Subject: Reply To: cdenk X-Mailer: QuickMail Pro 1.5.2 (Mac) X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: Mark Conroy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ixmail8.ix.netcom.com id HAA09018 I would rely on the designer of the home-built composite aircraft kit to provide appropriate advise regarding the fueling system design on the aircraft. With regard to advising your E-mail forum on the proper methods for fueling aircraft, I would refer t hem to NFPA 407, Standard for Aircraft Fuel Servicing. This standard goes into great detail on equalizing the potential between the fueling equipment and the aircraft. This standard can be ordered from our customer service department at 800- 344-3555 or National Fire Protection Association, 1 Batterymarch Park, Quincy, MA 02269-9101 or www.nfpa.org. -------------------------------------- Date: 12/24/98 11:10 AM From: Carl Denk I am a member of a homebuilt composite aircraft E-Mail forum where there has lately been discussion of static electricity issues during fueling. The fuels used are 100LL aviation gasoline and automobile gasolines. Although there has been an absence of fueling incidences, there is a concern to continue the trend. The aircraft including the inner surfaces of the fuel tanks are fiberglass (a few carbon or graphite) fiber cloth with epoxy matrix. All use aluminum tubing outlets and brass external fuel drains at the bottoms of the tanks. The fuel caps are generally aluminum, and possibly stainless steel. Several methods of static charge reduction during fueling have been used. 1: A metallic chain or light cable, with an end in the tank, and the other bonded to the fuelling facility ground is used. 2: A bond to the fuel drain (not at the fuel top surface) form the facilty ground, possibly through the aircraft ground system. 3: A few have conductive fiberglass on the interior of the fuel tanks, bonded to the aircraft ground system, that is then bonded to the fuel facility ground. 4: Wipe the fuel cap are with a cloth dampened with water. 5: Touch the fueling nozzle to the fuel cap, before removing the cap. These caps are not vented, separate tank vents at least several feet away are used. There are many of these aircraft flying, and under construction at this time. Any comments to help guide the operators/builders would be appreciated. Are there provisions of the NFPA code regulating the operation of a fueling facility? ------End forward message--------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:23:23 -0500 From: "Marc J. Zeitlin" Subject: COZY: Chapter 21: Tips on Capacitance Fuel Level Senders People; After hooking up the wiring for the electric dual fuel level gauge with the capacitance senders, I found that one side seemed to be working fine, while the other was pegged at 3/4 tank no matter how I adjusted the "empty" or "full" potentiometers on the sender. I switched the senders from side to side (on the back of the dual gauge) to make sure that the problem wasn't the gauge. The problem switched sides, so I knew it was the sender. Next, I measured the voltage on the signal wire, and it did not change with pot adjustments. I took the sender out of the tank and examined the capacitance probe (an aluminum tube with a copper tube inside it, with plastic spacers to keep them from touching). It was a bit gunked up, and I intuited that this was from the time that I had filled the tank with water to try to find the leaks. I dried it out and cleaned it up (so I thought) but it still didn't work. In the instructions, it said that if it wasn't working, it might be because it had been immersed in water (would have been nice if they had put a warning in the installation section somewhere, instead of just in the troubleshooting section...). Anyway, I called up Skysports (the MFG of the sender) and they said "Oh, yeah, if it's been in water you probably blew it up" or the functional equivalent. They said they might be able to fix it (for ~$25) or replace it (for $88). I figured I'd give it one shot before sending it in, so I baked it for 6 hours in the oven at 220 deg F (because I forgot it was in there - a couple of hours would be more than enough). I figured this would dry it out without destroying the electronics inside. Every once in a while I get lucky - it worked. Sends like a charm now. Anyway, don't immerse your electronic capacitance fuel level senders in water. -- Marc J. Zeitlin marcz@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~marcz/ From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:13:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Chapter 21: Tips on Capacitance Fuel Level Senders The Westtach (Skysports) mechanical gages are notorious, I have 2 old ones in the basement. Sometimes a bump on a hard surface will cure it. The needles bypass each other, and bend easy, then sticking against each other. Today I would use the Electronic International gages. Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:37:24 -0500 From: "Marc J. Zeitlin" Subject: Fwd: Re: COZY: Chapter 21: Tips on Capacitance Fuel Level Carl Denk wrote: >The Westtach (Skysports) mechanical gages are notorious, I have 2 old ones >in the basement. >Sometimes a bump on a hard surface will cure it. The needles bypass each >other, and bend easy, then sticking against each other. I may not have made my message clear - I had absolutely no problem (yet, anyway) with the Westach gauge. The problem was completely with the Skysports sender unit, which I got wet when I shouldn't have. The Westach gauge may indeed suck - I don't know - but as of yet I've had no problems in the garage :-). -- Marc J. Zeitlin marcz@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~marcz/ From: "Mara Liston" Subject: COZY: Fuel sender covers? Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:39:10 PST Has anyone out there installed the non-bendable fuel senders and made some sort of cover for them? I've tried a couple different things and haven't been too pleased. At one point our Cozy had hips that were not very sleek looking. The way we installed them they are only about 1/4 of the way under the turtle back to strake fairing and they stick up above the top of the strake approximately 1/2". Any ideas other than putting them into the growing not-going-on-to-the-airplane pile and getting the bendable ones? Thanks Mara Liston N559CZ still sanding... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: "DeFord, Brian" Subject: COZY: Ch 22 - What is purpose of hole in strake baffle OD? Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:46:40 -0700 Builders, I just flipped my aircraft over last night to prepare for the bottom strake glassing and prior to that will be attaching the OD baffles to the outer ends of the strake. Can anyone tell me what the purpose of this area is? Why is there a hole in the center of the baffle? As I understand the plans, the baffle will be covered up by a filler block that goes between the wing and the strake. Am I missing something, or is this an exercise in hole cutting? Regards, Brian Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:19:00 +0200 From: Rego and Noleen Burger Subject: COZY: Ch 22 - What is purpose of hole in strake baffle OD? If it is the big rib like hole I would guess it's to save on a bit of weight (A) and (B) give you access to apply any last minute sealing jobs on the last rib should you pick up a leak in your pressure testing of the tanks... 2c The designer would know better. :-) -- Rego Burger CZ4#139 South Africa Web:http://home.intekom.com/glen/rnb.htm Work e-mail, mailto:burgerr@telkom.co.za From: "John Slade" Subject: COZY: Fule lines in passenger compartment Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:23:01 -0400 Builders. I've seen discussion in the archives about the issue of fuel lines in the passenger compartment. Yesterday I received an email from a prospective builder, David Kirkley. He has an interesting suggestion which wasn't covered in any of the discussion I saw. Anyone know of source for double walled fuel line? John Slade Cozy #757. http://kgarden.com/cozy From: David Kirkley ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- I have been working flight test for many years, mostly systems Hydraulics, Flight controls, ECS and currently Fuel. Just finished the certification program for the global express and DH-8 400. There is one thing that bothers me quite a bit on the Cozy design and that is having fuel and vent lines running thru the fuselage. This is not good and indeed would not pass muster on a FAR 25 aircraft. Many aircraft have fuel and vent lines that run thru the passenger cabin however they are shrouded (double walled). and the cavity drained overboard. This gives a heads up of a leak during the preflight of the airplane the fuel leaves a streak on the exterior of the aircraft. During flight test we did find a leak by chance in an electrical conduit (carrying 115V power) inside the fuel tank that was not drained overboard, subsequent inspection revealed several conduits on each of the 3 flight test aircraft with the same fault. (It is now drained) I believe that the weight penalty for shrouding fuel feed and vent lines from the tank exit to the powerplant interface is a small price to pay for the potential gain. Additionally in case of a complete severing of the primary feed line the shroud will if designed correctly still allow fuel flow to the engine. The shroud should be flame resistant aft of the firewall. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:37:50 -0600 From: James Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel lines in passenger compartment >Builders. >I've seen discussion in the archives about the issue of fuel lines in the >passenger compartment. Yesterday I received an email from a prospective >builder, David Kirkley. He has an interesting suggestion which wasn't >covered in any of the discussion I saw. >Anyone know of source for double walled fuel line? >John Slade >Cozy #757. >http://kgarden.com/cozy > > >From: David Kirkley >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----------------------------------------- >I have been working flight test for many years, mostly systems Hydraulics, >Flight controls, ECS and currently Fuel. Just finished the certification >program for the global express and DH-8 400. >There is one thing that bothers me quite a bit on the Cozy design and that >is >having fuel and vent lines running thru the fuselage. This is not good and >indeed would not pass muster on a FAR 25 aircraft. Many aircraft have >fuel and vent lines that run thru the passenger cabin however they are >shrouded (double walled). and the cavity drained overboard. This gives a Hi all: Same thoughts...Gulfstream uses double wall lines inside the fuselage w/ a drain... I don't have a clew as to cost or vendor...my solution is stainless lines - heavy, but bulletproof. This means no hand bending or flaring but the machine's flares always look better than mine. Regards, James Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:27:21 -0700 From: hrogers@slac.stanford.edu (Howard Rogers) Subject: Re: COZY: Fule lines in passenger compartment In response to David Kirkley's fuel suggestions, I'd like to make a few comments. In no way would I suggest that you modify the tried and proven methods in the Cozy Plans. The changes I have made (and WILL make) are strictly my own solution to my own perception of something that could use a bit of improvement. I, too, did not like the idea of fuel lines and fuel valve in the passenger compartment of the Long EZ. I did something a bit similar to what was done in the airplane John Denver lost his life in, with some important differences, that take flying ergonomics into account. I mounted the fuel valve on the forward face of the firewall, and I actuate it with a torque tube that runs forward, through one standard u-joint (the same type that is in the primary flight control system of many certified aircraft) to a handle inside of my right console, just beside my right hip. I can reach it with my left hand, very comfortably, with heads up, shoulder harness tight, and a normal, comfortable grip on the right hand control stick. I will be able to see it's position clearly in a mirror (for convenience--I can look directly at it, also, if necessary). There will be a lock-out that must be conciously overridden to place it in the "off" position, and there will be microswitches on the valve itself, to light leds adjacent to my panel-mounted fuel gages, to indicate which tank is currently selected. The detents are crisp, the effort required is minimal, and the action is extremely smooth. What do I gain from this? My fuel system is exactly identical to the stock system, with regards to the plumbing circuit, including elevation of all the components in reference to the water line. The lines are just shorter, which I feel is an additional bonus, in the event of selecting a contaminated tank, then switching back to the good one. Just that much less contaminated fuel has to run through the engine, before it is drawing from the clean tank again. I paid special attention to making sure, to the best of my ability, that the failure mode most commonly seen in a truly bad landing (like off-field in a plowed pasture, for example) of wiping off the main gear, would be unlikely to yank on or damagefuel-lines or components. The additional change I am planning, is to the vent system. This one hurts, because I put a LOT of time into bending lines perfectly (I had a whole pile of reject bent 1/4 inch aluminum tube to prove it) to bring the stock tubes out exactly where I wanted them, and I built the maximimum-snarky, low-profile, four-abreast, slick......(oops, I got carried away) vent array on top of the airplane, that I was SURE would bring a lot of ooh's and ahhs from the knowlegeble flightline-prowlers some day. I'm gonna grind all that off and do it over, though, because I never liked the idea of being upside-down, and maybe trapped after an off-field flip-over, with fuel dribbling steadily out of the vent lines. CSA shows a neat installation of running the vent lines up and over the top of the firewall, then down and outboard along the bottom aft edge of the opposite-side centersection spar, then out the bottom, and bent facing forward. Makes perfect sense to me. I can't see anything wrong with it, and I'm asking if anyone here can, either, because it is the nature of fuel systems to contain hidden "gotchas", and I am always all ears on the subject. I am very interested in the double wall fuel lines, though I can't envision how they would benefit my particular installation. I can certainly visualize how they would benefit others I have seen, though. Is there a website where we could look at some pictures of how this stuff works? I am having a hard time visualizing how the inner line could become ruptured or seperated, yet the outer line remains intact enough to continue supplying fuel. Did I misunderstand something major, here? I am also confounded by why a designer would run 115 vac through a fuel tank, in the first place. If I were designing airplanes, I think I would make it a high priority to keep any wiring, aside from that required for level-indicators, FAR from the fuel lines and tanks. Again, am I missing something big, here? Sorry for the long rant. --Howard Rogers From: Epplin John A Subject: RE: COZY: Fule lines in passenger compartment Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:00:24 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: hrogers@slac.stanford.edu [SMTP:hrogers@slac.stanford.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 1:27 PM > To: cozy_builders@canard.com > Subject: Re: COZY: Fule lines in passenger compartment > The additional change I am > planning, is to the vent system. This one hurts, because I put a LOT of > time into bending lines perfectly (I had a whole pile of reject bent 1/4 > inch aluminum tube to prove it) to bring the stock tubes out exactly where > I wanted them, and I built the maximimum-snarky, low-profile, > four-abreast, > slick......(oops, I got carried away) vent array on top of the airplane, > that I was SURE would bring a lot of ooh's and ahhs from the knowlegeble > flightline-prowlers some day. I'm gonna grind all that off and do it > over, > though, because I never liked the idea of being upside-down, and maybe > trapped after an off-field flip-over, with fuel dribbling steadily out of > the vent lines. CSA shows a neat installation of running the vent lines > up > and over the top of the firewall, then down and outboard along the bottom > aft edge of the opposite-side centersection spar, then out the bottom, and > bent facing forward. Makes perfect sense to me. I can't see anything > wrong with it, and I'm asking if anyone here can, either, because it is > the > nature of fuel systems to contain hidden "gotchas", and I am always all > ears on the subject. > > --Howard Rogers > [Epplin John A] I did a similar thing here. I ran 2 lines into each tank, one just forward of the spar about center of tank, the other forward at about the point where the skin curves down. I brought each line up to the top center aft firewall, there I made a fitting from an aluminum block about .5 by .75 and 2+ inches long. I drilled and tapped 3 holes in each side for 1/8 pipe and a through hole from the top to connect all holes together. I tapped 1/8 pipe and plugged this drill hole at the top. Connected the vent lines to the upper 2 holes each side and ran another line out the lower hole parallel the lines to the tank and brought it out just aft of the spar through the cowling mount flange. I had to make a clearance cut in the cowling edge to clear the line and rubber grommet that it passes through. At this time I scarfed the line forward about 45 degrees and drilled a small hole in the aft side just above the scarf cut, supposed to allow the thing to breath in case the forward faced scarf ices up. I am still concerned about icing, have no intention to fly into known icing conditions but..... One problem I see with my setup is that I will have to disconnect everything at conditional inspection time to guarantee no plugged lines, as everything is redundant. Anybody see a problem with this scheme? As Howard says, I am all ears. John Epplin MK4 #467 N100EP Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:25:51 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: COZY: Fule lines in passenger compartment At 12:23 PM 6/2/99 -0400, you wrote: >There is one thing that bothers me quite a bit on the Cozy design and that >is >having fuel and vent lines running thru the fuselage. This is not good and >indeed would not pass muster on a FAR 25 aircraft. Many aircraft have >fuel and vent lines that run thru the passenger cabin however they are >shrouded (double walled). and the cavity drained overboard. Curious. I've done a quick word and phrase search in Part 25 and did find references to shrouding fuel lines in vicinity of fuel fired heaters to prevent leaking fuel from entering the ventilation system. I found no requirement for extra ordinary enclosure of fuel lines in the cabin or anywhere else. There were lots of words about adequate support, showing that materials used were suited to task, and taking special note of fuel lines that run through especially hot or cold areas. I've been a stong advocate of electric primer systems to avoid running primer lines all the way to the pilot's position. Electric primers plumbed to 4 or 6 port primer systems offer a unique opportunity to build a stand-by fuel delivery system that is totally independent of the normal running system. The larger plumbing used to carry fuel from tanks to selector valves and ultimately to the engine don't figure high on the list of hazards in accident history . . . indeed, one builder's quest to keep fuel out of the cockpit gave rise to a fuel selector handle that Mr. Denver couldn't reach . . . not a bad deal for the guy who designed it but a real problem for the guy who bought the airplane. For canard-pusher aircraft, the potential for long runs of fuel lines in cockpit are certainly greater . . . but keep in mind that fuel line failures happen most often at compormised joints or at locations where lines are not properly supported and protected from chaffing. If the joints you make in your fuel lines are no greater in number than those found in the average Cessna or Piper, I'll suggest that aside from the obvious need for mechanical security of the installation, there's not much of an argument for the use of exotic tubing for fuselage fuel handling . . . Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Independence Kansas: the > < Jurassic Park of aviation. > < Your source for brand new > < 40 year old airplanes. > ================================= http://www.aeroelectric.com From: "Nat Puffer" Subject: COZY: Fuel lines in cockpit Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:53:54 -0500 Builders, In the Varieze design, the fuel selector valve was located at the firewall, at the end of a torque tube, even though there was a fuselage tank (inside the fuselage) besides two wing tanks. There were too many forced landings attributed to the torque tube breaking, or the fuel valve sticking, or the pilot not positioning it correctly because he couldn't feel the detents. When Burt designed the Long EZ, he located the fuel selector valve at the instrument panel, either in the panel or in the thigh support between the pilot's legs, so the pilot could feel the detents and see the position of the valve. This meant running a line from each tank up to the front where the valve was located, and then a single line back to the firewall. Obviously the builder of the Long EZ that John Denver purchased thought the torque tube was the better idea, but it cost John his life. When we designed the Cozy, we were able to eliminate some of the fuel lines by locating the selector valve in the back cockpit, but with the handle extending through the front seat back so the pilot could place his hand directly on the valve, see the position, and feel the detents. I am not aware that there have been any reported leakages of the fuel lines in the cabin in any Cozys or Long EZs for that matter, even in crashes. There has been a decided reduction of forced landings and/or crashes due to fuel valves located on the firewall. The first rule in problem solving is to define the problem. We are not aware of any problem remaining to be solved. The idea of the vent lines going over the top of the firewall and then down underneath the strake was originated by the designer of the Cozy to solve two problems: 1) the risk of fuel draining out in the event of a crash and the airplane tipping upsidedown, and 2) the risk of the vent line picking up rain and freezing in flight. The idea was presented to RAF, but never incorporated in the Long EZ plans. Regards, Nat From: SWrightFLY@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:58:41 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Fule lines in passenger compartment In a message dated 6/2/99 1:40:39 PM Central Daylight Time, hrogers@slac.stanford.edu writes: << CSA shows a neat installation of running the vent lines up and over the top of the firewall, then down and outboard along the bottom aft edge of the opposite-side centersection spar, then out the bottom, and bent facing forward. Makes perfect sense to me. I can't see anything wrong with it, and I'm asking if anyone here can, either, because it is the nature of fuel systems to contain hidden "gotchas", and I am always all ears on the subject. >> this is a great idea and is what I have done in my Stagger EZ but with one exception- 1. Rather than running the vent lines on the engine side of the firewall, I ran the lines on the passenger side of the firewall and laid up a 2 inch wide BID tape over each of the 1/4 inch Al tubes. The ONLY fuel lines in the engine compartment containing vapor or fuel will be the fuel line (having a fire sleave) going through the firewall to the Ellison TB. Steve Wright Wright Aircraft Works LLC: Electric Nose-Lift for EZEs From: "Ernesto Sanchez" Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel lines in cockpit Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:09:45 -0000 > Obviously the builder of the Long EZ that John . > Denver purchased thought the torque tube was > the better idea, but it cost John his life. Mr Denver died because he did not have fuel in his plane (maybe 3 gal total). Even if he had the valve per plans, he was still out of gas. His plane had many hours on the clock by differnet owners. They did not crash. Now, the Denver estate is suing everybody because John failed to take the most basic percautions, fuel his plane and become familar with it's systems before flight. A very sad situation for all involved. Best wishes, Ernesto Sanchez 90% done, 90% left on my Long From: "Morten Brandtzaeg" Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel lines in cockpit Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:24:07 +0200 Hello friends, I'm new to this group. I'm from Norway were it's cold and dark most of the year! I've been flying Cozy III for some years and even seen my plane been away with all its landing gear during a VERY rough landing (1700 hrs to repair the plane..) by an inexperienced pilot on the type and windshear. The pressure test of the tanks and fuel system showed no sign of leakage after the rough impact- The good thing for me is that I CAN smell fuel if something is wrong. Have not experienced any leakage these years.. I fly a lot in winter conditions and the way the fuel went is designed I haven't seen any ice building at any time. Keep it as it is folks! Safe flying! Morten Brandtzaeg, LN-USA Cozy III Brgds Morten Brandtzaeg, ScandiSoft Tel: +47 6126 1050 Fax: +47 6126 4392 Mob: +47 9011 7526 -----Original Message----- From: Nat Puffer To: Cozy_builders@canard.com Date: 2. juni 1999 23:28 Subject: COZY: Fuel lines in cockpit >Builders, >In the Varieze design, the fuel selector valve was located at the firewall, >at the end of a torque tube, even though there was a fuselage tank (inside >the fuselage) besides two wing tanks. There were too many forced landings >attributed to the torque tube breaking, or the fuel valve sticking, or the >pilot not positioning it correctly because he couldn't feel the detents. >When Burt designed the Long EZ, he located the fuel selector valve at the >instrument panel, either in the panel or in the thigh support between the >pilot's legs, so the pilot could feel the detents and see the position of >the valve. This meant running a line from each tank up to the front where >the valve was located, and then a single line back to the firewall. >Obviously the builder of the Long EZ that John Denver purchased thought the >torque tube was the better idea, but it cost John his life. >When we designed the Cozy, we were able to eliminate some of the fuel lines >by locating the selector valve in the back cockpit, but with the handle >extending through the front seat back so the pilot could place his hand >directly on the valve, see the position, and feel the detents. I am not >aware that there have been any reported leakages of the fuel lines in the >cabin in any Cozys or Long EZs for that matter, even in crashes. There has >been a decided reduction of forced landings and/or crashes due to fuel >valves located on the firewall. The first rule in problem solving is to >define the problem. We are not aware of any problem remaining to be solved. >The idea of the vent lines going over the top of the firewall and then down >underneath the strake was originated by the designer of the Cozy to solve >two problems: 1) the risk of fuel draining out in the event of a crash and >the airplane tipping upsidedown, and 2) the risk of the vent line picking >up rain and freezing in flight. The idea was presented to RAF, but never >incorporated in the Long EZ plans. >Regards, >Nat From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:01:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: COZY: Fule lines in passenger compartment My vents are: the plans location brought to forward and high above the spar, and a second set of vents from the high point inboard just forward of the spar (this is the high point when the plane is kneeling) brought to the same point. Then one from each tank continues down exiting just outboard of the inner wing bolts below and between the spar and wing on opposite sides of the tank served. The others do a 180 turn high on the inside firewall and exits adjacent to the others, but at the same side as the tank served. 2 advantages, if upside down, no fuel leakage, and if a mud dabber wasp builds a nest on both on one side, I still have vents. I check them by removing the fuel caps, have a friend listen at the opening, and blow compressed air. One opening per tank, not the best. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:07:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel lines in cockpit Fuel starvation may have been contributing, and an EZ mostly survives a water landing (Number one job fly the plane), but as I understand the plane went near vertical down. The plane was recently painted, I doubt that the control surfaces were balanced, and doubt even the paint shop was given access to the instructions. Sounds to me like elevator flutter and canard failure, resulting in loss of lift at the forward part of the plane. From: TRCsmith@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:47:53 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Fule lines in passenger compartment Gee, Let's see! If I recall, a DC-10 has a fuel line (single wall) running from the center wing tank and under the passenger compartment to the APU. MD and the FAA don't seem to have a problem with that. Improvements have come along through the years, and several have been installed on aircraft and work well. I've done some myself that I liked. But double wall fuel lines, do we really need them, and when was the last time you heard of a regular single wall fuel line leaking, other than at the fitting? Double wall fuel lines also have fittings? I built mine by the plans, and have a great deal of trust in the man that designed and tested it. The perfect and safest airplane that will satisfy everyone will never be built and fly! Our's homebuilts are safe, if you can make them safer, then do so, fly it and let us know how it goes... Tom LongEZ N12TS A&P From: Lee810@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:15:30 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel lines in cockpit In a message dated 6/2/99 6:13:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, es12043@utech.net writes: > Mr Denver died because he did not have fuel in his plane (maybe 3 gal > total). Even if he had the valve per plans, he was still out of gas. This is not correct. JD was distracted by the unorthodox way the valve was installed and put the plane into an attitude from which he could not recover. FMI see: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/LAX/98A008.htm I find it very disheartening that people would elect to ignore history and repeat the exact same mistakes of the Varieze fuel system in an attempt to prevent a fuel leak from entering the cockpit. A fuel leak into the cockpit does not mean the plane will spontaneously burst into flames. That requires a source of heat or flame/spark and the right oxygen/fuel vapor mixture. Fuel in the cockpit has the beneficial effect of alerting you to a fuel leak because you will be able smell the fuel. The most likely source of a fuel leak is at the fittings and installing the fuel selector valve on the firewall puts more fuel fittings in the engine compartment. Would it be preferable for a potential fuel leak to occur undetected into the engine compartment? A torque tube introduces many more problems that it solves. All the certified planes like Pipers, Cessnas, Mooneys, etc, have fuel lines running through the fuselage and if it really was as risky as some people would have you believe, this would have been changed many years ago. Lee Devlin Greeley, CO Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 15:42:44 -0500 From: Bulent Aliev Subject: COZY: [Fwd: Fuel System Do's/Don'ts] I think some of us may find this interesting. Bulent Received: from mail4.bellsouth.net (mail4.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.4]) by mail0.mia.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16810 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.134]) by mail4.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26755; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from noname.nodomain.nowhere (pool114-cvx.ds59-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.170.114]) by penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA04297; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 07:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Sender: root@penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net Message-ID: <375935C3.5591136F@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 07:35:47 -0700 From: Paul X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.33 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: zz Subject: Fuel System Do's/Don'ts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Bill Freeman wrote: > > Paul, > > DO NOT - Use the sexy looking, expensive stainless braid > exterior, teflon-lined hose. Why? The FALSE story is that the > teflon hose lasts forever, so even if it costs many times what > the H-8794 hose does it is worth it. Let me repeat THIS IS > FALSE. The teflon hose has an unlimited SHELF LIFE, > **not** service life and should be replaced every decade or > sooner, just exactly like H-8794. Also, this hose is known to have > caused fuel system fires if the teflon gets too hot and starts to flow > and break down. If you doubt the above, go to Parker's web site > and verify it. http://www.parker.com/fcg/index.htm Bill do you have the exact page address where it talks about teflon verses rubber? > DO - Use Mil H-8794 fuel line (cloth braid exterior, steel braid > next, then rubber liner). > > Mil H-8794 is met by Aeroquip 303 hose with Aeroquip 491 > fittings or Stratoflex 111 hose with 111 fittings. This hose is > rated at 2,000 psi operation pressure in the 3/8" ( -6) size. > > DO - Put fire sleeve on all fuel lines on engine side of firewall. > > DO NOT - Use any fuel valve that uses a tapered brass plug > in a brass body. I think the brand is Weatherhead. > These WILL seize and CANNOT be kept permanently lubed > well enough to work reliably. This has been fought for many > decades by Piper and verified for over a decade by Rutan designs. > Piper finally gave up and commisioned a direct replacement (no > changes to lines, fittings, mntg bolts, etc) which Wickes > sells and works beautifully, if more expensive. I have flown it > for 10 yrs and it works great. My Weatherhead was seizing up > in the garage during "play flying" during construction! > > DO drill a 1/16" hole in the back of each forward facing fuel > vent standpipe to keep air flowing if a big bug or ice blocks > the main inlet. > > Bill The Aircraft Rotary Engine Newsletter. Powered by Linux. http://home.earthlink.net/~rotaryeng/ http://www.linux.org From: "Nat Puffer" Subject: Re: COZY: [Fwd: Fuel System Do's/Don'ts] Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 15:42:38 -0500 The valve with a brass body and plug is the Imperial. That is the one you are not supposed to use. The Weatherhead has a delrin spool inside a brass body which eliminates the sticking problem. The Weatherhead is the one we recommend in the Cozy plans. Let's not publish false information. Nat ---------- > From: Bulent Aliev > To: canard-aviator ; Cozy > Subject: COZY: [Fwd: Fuel System Do's/Don'ts] > Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 3:42 PM > > I think some of us may find this interesting. > Bulent > Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 07:58:20 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: COZY: [Fwd: Fuel System Do's/Don'ts] > > Bill Freeman wrote: > > > The teflon hose has an unlimited SHELF LIFE, > > **not** service life and should be replaced every decade or > > sooner, just exactly like H-8794. Also, this hose is known to have > > caused fuel system fires if the teflon gets too hot and starts to flow > > and break down. If you doubt the above, go to Parker's web site > > and verify it. OK, I did. The H-8794 has a temp. range of -65 to 250 degrees F. The 124 teflon goes up to 500 degrees. Am I missing something here? -ew Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 10:01:58 -0500 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: [Fwd: Fuel System Do's/Don'ts] Bulent, re "I think some of us may find this interesting." Interesting indeed. My experience with 303 hose is as follows. After 4 years of service on a LEZ with the Lycoming 0-235, I modified the carb heat system and discovered when doing a system check with the cowling off, the 303 hose was leaking like a sieve food strainer. With just 6 psi pressure the entire hose was wet from fuel pump to carb. It leaked dangerously and could not be detected with the engine shut down. I think one needs to take with a grain of salt any black and white assertions concerning such matters. In other words, don't believe everything you read....it may not be completely true. dd Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 12:33:21 -0500 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: Fw: COZY: Re: [c-a] Fuel level sensor Brian, re "In this case I would stick to the plans. What you see is what you get!!!" I agree. The cost, time to install, lost panel space and questionable reliability are not worth replacing the stone simple plan site gauges. If there's anything primal in avaition, it's seeing your fuel.... dd Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 13:22:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Brusehaver Subject: Re: Fw: COZY: Re: [c-a] Fuel level sensor >>From my 22 years working on aircraft with capacitive fuel sensors (as in >>C-12s "King Air 200s") don't rely on then for quantity. They are very >>susceptible to moisture. > >In this case I would stick to the plans. What you see is what you >get!!! I think the site gauges are great, I wouldn't consider not putting 'em in. The only trouble I have with 'em might be if I loaded up the back seat with stuff, they might be hidden from view. Having an instrument in the panel provides you with something to remind you to at least look. Having something electronic, offers the chance to augment the system with addition al warnings. They do have 2-1/4" dual gauges (one gauge for both tanks), so panel space shouldn't be an issue. Jim Weir in his article (see link below) talks about water in tanks, and the diaelectric constant of gas is ~1.94 and water is 78. If your gauge is wrong, you may have water in the tanks, that is another good warning. I am real tempted to just put some foil on either side of a couple of the ribs in my strake, and call it a capacitive sensor. Dunno yet, it'll be a couple months before I have to decide that, and oshkosh is coming up, so I'll have a chance to talk to folks about different systems. From: alwick@juno.com Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:09:31 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel level sensor Since fuel exhaustion is one of the leading causes for crashes, it is certainly worth discussing. I hold an entirely different view on this subject. Passive fuel level systems like the plans version have higher probability of pilot oversight. Hard to appreciate the increased risk unless you have had experience with that type of failure. All passive systems, ones that require the pilot to notice something, include increased risk. Examples of poor passive systems also include items such as gear down with no warning light and buzzer, fuel cap sys (hopefully you will notice cap off), canopy latch w/o light and buzzer, flap and air brake w/o light and buzzer, oil pressure, etc. We are all used to such passive systems. When we hear of a failure, we tend to identify a cause such as "pilot error", and not realize that it's also a systemic failure. The system is never improved, so every once in a while a pilot gets caught ..... fuel exhaustion. It's always that "other guy", or so we think. The plans fuel sys is good in it's simplicity. Very good. Low risk of false readings (except for fuel stains affecting readability,shadows). But if you can add an active sys to it, your risk would drop dramatically. I've added some of the "low fuel" sensors from automobiles. They weight darn near nuttin. They are cheap (5$). They are proven by their use in millions of vehicles. When fuel level is low, dash bulb "low fuel" lights up just like it does in your car. I also have my sys doing stuff like voice in headset, predicting fuel use, verifying calibration, etc etc. Passive systems were the only way to handle these things in the 1950's. But the new stuff is way safer. I consider some sort of active fuel sys essential. Either these low fuel sensors, capacitance sensor, or variable resistor with float. I know that very few of us have been exposed to active, intelligent systems, but any move in that direction is a big improvement over passive. I've proven it by doing experiments in various industries. FWIW. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.95% complete. On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:07:03 -0500 extensionsystems@mindspring.com writes: > From my 22 years working on aircraft with capacitive fuel sensors (as in > C-12s "King Air 200s") don't rely on then for quantity. They are very > susceptible to moisture. > > In this case I would stick to the plans. What you see is what you > get!!! > > Brian Dempster ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:32:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Fw: COZY: Re: [c-a] Fuel level sensor I forgot to mention in the previous message: The King Air 200 is a turboprop burning Jet-A, not gasoline, I don't know what effect that has plus the unreliablity of certified equipment. I would be happy if my gauge went goofy, flagging the possibilty of water. Knock on wood for good luck, I have never seen water in my fuel. Make sure your fuel caps seal out water on the strake, and use caution when fueling. Never (even you auto) fuel from a tank that is or just has been filled from a tanker. It stirs up water and sediment in the bottom of the tank. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:27:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Fw: COZY: Re: [c-a] Fuel level sensor With Luggage in the back to at least the level of the upper longerons, the sight gauges are not visible, and since the COZY is a long haul machine, and one of the features bragging about is luggage space with 2 people, this is a very common occurance. Some type of remote sensing gauges should be mandatory. Part of the caution that came with my gauges was water will cause a full scale indication (even a small quantity). Part of normal operations is comparing the electronic gauge with the clock and if there is a major difference don't rely upon (don't anyhow). My Skysports capacitive sending units have been fairly good, I had to replace one due to an adjustment pot being intermittent. THe Westach mechanical gauge can be troublesome also and have had one replaced und warranty, and another on my nickle. My preference would be the capacitive sending with electronic gauge. One could also use a mechanical (float arm with variable resistance) could also be used. From: "Hunter Welch" Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel level sensor Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:13:24 -0700 I am approaching this point but have not gotten there yet. I remember a couple years ago in the Wicks catalog I found a lightweight float type of sensor that would break a circuit when the float was so many degrees from horizontal. I had thought of an indicator system that would have one of these placed at about the 1/2 full level and on that would be placed at about the 1/4-1/8 level. The lower one would be attached to a warning system the type Al has mentioned. I have not really researched this to a full extent but was a thought I had cataloged in the back of my mind. I know when I helped on the last Cozy we decided not to go with the capacitor type because we were getting all sorts of erroneous readings even after replacing the units several times. We installed and calibrated correctly because the one side worked but never could get the other to work correctly Good Day Bill W From: Ryan Amendala Subject: Re: Fw: COZY: Re: [c-a] Fuel level sensor Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:28:46 PDT Brian, Rely on them, no, add them as a second view , up to you. I know of a long EZ that has site gauges, capacitive fuel gauges with a switch on panel to select tank, fuel totalizer on the RMI micromonitor and a "sump" in fuel lines which hooks up to a Simplifly for voice warning. The only added panel space is the switch and a fuel guage. Think it is too much? Read the history on how many forced landings are due to fuel starvation. It is something that should never happen, yet its takes a big bite when it does. The best thing about this system is that you have to enter in the amount of fuel you added into the RMI so that you know exactly how much fuel you have, if you don't it will tell you you are out of fuel when you actually have plenty! NOTE: the first gauge mentioned is the site gauges, I do not believe in deviating from plans, but adding additional safety features does not hurt either. Ryan From ???@??? Fri Jun 11 22:11:15 1999 Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id RAA17356 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:47:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA07639 for cozy_builders-list; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:21:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f Received: from penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.134]) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07634 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:21:11 -0400 Received: from earthlink.net (ip198.saint-louis2.mo.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.208.198]) by penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08445; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37617B46.A500624E@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:10:32 -0500 From: David Domeier X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Amendala CC: cozy_builders@canard.com Subject: Re: Fw: COZY: Re: [c-a] Fuel level sensor References: <19990610152847.18769.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: David Domeier X-UIDL: 0883f04a834efdfa17b128cb174b91fe Ryan, re "Rely on them, no, add them as a second view , up to you. I know of a long EZ that has site gauges, capacitive fuel gauges with a switch on panel to select tank, fuel totalizer on the RMI micromonitor and a "sump" in fuel lines which hooks up to a Simplifly for voice warning." I have the Vision Micro engine gauge system which includes a very accurate fuel flow system. It is so accurate with regard to fuel remaining, I use it as a backup for the site gauges. When the fuel ramaining hits a certain level (I'd have the check the manual on what that level is) it begins to flash "REM". You can't miss it if you monitor the engine gauges at all....of course it is predicated on accuate pilot input with regard to "fuel add" like any other computer. dd From: alwick@juno.com Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 11:11:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Fw: COZY: Re: [c-a] Fuel level sensor On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:10:32 -0500 David Domeier writes: >> I have the Vision Micro engine gauge system which includes a very > accurate fuel flow system. It is so accurate with regard to fuel > remaining, I use it as a backup for the site gauges. When the fuel > ramaining hits a certain level (I'd have the check the manual on what > that level is) it begins to flash "REM". You can't miss it if you > monitor the engine gauges at all....of course it is predicated on > accuate pilot input with regard to "fuel add" like any other > computer. Sounds like a good improvement over the stock sight gage sys. Looking at it from a system point of view, it would be substantially improved if it didn't rely on pilot input time after time. Concerned that periodically pilot will forget or input wrong value. But still it is a substantial improvement, particularly if you continue to use sight gage during preflight to double check instrument reading. I have my computer set up to recognize that the tanks were just filled, and ask me during preflight if they were filled and how many gallons? Helps reduce chance of pilot oversight and allows frequent fuel gage recalibration (assuming I fill tanks). This would be a big improvement, except I doubt I will fill tanks very often since they hold way too many gallons for normal flight use. We'll see. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.95% complete. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: Militch@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 08:58:57 EDT Subject: COZY: Fuel line planning for injection systems I am now beginning chapter 6, and so will soon be working on the fuel valve installation. If I eventually install a fuel injected engine, I will need a return line to each tank. How do other builders accommodate this? Do I have to use a two channel fuel switch in place of the single channel plans-specified unit (which I already have) or would it be sufficient to install a "T" return line, expecting the majority of the return flow to go to the tank that is sourcing the flow to the engine. Somehow, I don't think the "T" idea would be a very good approach. I don't see anything in the archives about this, but if it's there, a pointer would be appreciated. Peter Militch Cozy Mark IV #740 From: alwick@juno.com Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:26:28 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel line planning for injection systems I'm using auto conversion in my cozy, but it too requires return line for fuel. I added a 2.5 gallon tank just above the center of main gear. Pretty common solution that has worked well for others. It also allows you to eliminate tank switching if you so choose, or not. If you go this route, you would want to do some testing to verify that return line doesn't induce vapor lock. Size & shape of tank and inlet filter may affect this. Returning fuel must be allowed to dissipate bubbles and mix with virgin fuel. I followed progress of EZ guy who started out sending return line directly to fuel pump inlet. Big no no. Good luck. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.95% complete. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:44:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel line planning for injection systems I have the Bendix RSA-5 injector, which is the standard factory installed injector on all Lycoming 320, and I believe 360 engines. I am looking at the Lycoming "Schematic Diagram". I see noted a fuel inlet, a tube to the flow divider block, and the tubes (one per cylinder) to the injector nozzles. There is no return line indicated. Next time I'm at the airport, I'll have to look, but I DO NOT have a return line going to the tanks. There might be a return line going to the gascolator area. The aircraft has more than 700 hours on it, with no issues. Remember with updraft cooling, the distribution block and nozzle tubing must be mounted on the cool side (not top) of the engine. This might be an advantage of the Bendix unit, besides if you have a problem at a distant airport, probably the mechanics there will be familiar, and an exchange unit readily available. 0abcf00@mail> X-Sender: cherney@mail X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:30:35 -0400 To: cozy_builders@canard.com From: Rob Cherney Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel line planning for injection systems In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Rob Cherney X-UIDL: e83c7a192cc4dac34a1c333c88f4cb0d Peter: While at Sun-N-Fun I asked some people about this very subject. Airflow Performance, the maker of an after-market injection system, makes a nice manually-operated relief valve. This valve can redirect fuel back to one of your tanks and purge the system of any vaporized fuel. If I recall correctly, it is mounted immediately upstream of the fuel distribution spider. As someone else pointed out, the spider should be mounted on the underside of an updraft-cooled engine. Operating the valve would be part of a hot start procedure. If you take this route, I'd be very cautious about the installation and use the application information provided by the manufacturer. In addition, I'd give careful consideration to any potential failure modes when working out the details. Rob- From ???@??? Wed Jun 16 21:17:54 1999 Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id JAA27812 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11295 for cozy_builders-list; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:22:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f Received: from omzrelay03.mcit.com (omzrelay03.mcit.com [199.249.19.245]) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11290 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:22:08 -0400 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by firewall.mcit.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38418) id <0FDD00N01DN0QK@firewall.mcit.com> for cozy_builders@canard.com; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:04:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ndcrelay.mcit.com ([166.37.172.49]) by firewall.mcit.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38418) with ESMTP id <0FDD00NCKDMZK0@firewall.mcit.com> for cozy_builders@canard.com; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:04:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from omzmta04.mcit.com (omzmta04.mcit.com [166.37.194.122]) by ndcrelay.mcit.com (8.8.7/) with ESMTP id NAA09434 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:03:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localHost ([166.34.97.45]) by omzmta04.mcit.com (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP id <19990615130410.BRJB632@localHost> for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:04:10 +0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Pollock Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel line planning for injection systems To: cozy_builders@canard.com Message-id: <19990615130410.BRJB632@localHost> Organization: MCI WorldCom Network Integration Lab X-Mailer: MailRoom for Internet v2.3h (www.SierraSol.com) Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Michael Pollock X-UIDL: cb67039974b95b909dfbc445aec130fc We too fly a Lycoming IO-3From ???@??? Wed Jun 16 21:17:54 1999 Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id JAA27812 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11295 for cozy_builders-list; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:22:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f Received: from omzrelay03.mcit.com (omzrelay03.mcit.com [199.249.19.245]) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11290 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:22:08 -0400 Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by firewall.mcit.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38418) id <0FDD00N01DN0QK@firewall.mcit.com> for cozy_builders@canard.com; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:04:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ndcrelay.mcit.com ([166.37.172.49]) by firewall.mcit.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38418) with ESMTP id <0FDD00NCKDMZK0@firewall.mcit.com> for cozy_builders@canard.com; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:04:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from omzmta04.mcit.com (omzmta04.mcit.com [166.37.194.122]) by ndcrelay.mcit.com (8.8.7/) with ESMTP id NAA09434 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:03:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localHost ([166.34.97.45]) by omzmta04.mcit.com (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with SMTP id <19990615130410.BRJB632@localHost> for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:04:10 +0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Michael Pollock Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel line planning for injection systems To: cozy_builders@canard.com Message-id: <19990615130410.BRJB632@localHost> Organization: MCI WorldCom Network Integration Lab X-Mailer: MailRoom for Internet v2.3h (www.SierraSol.com) Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Michael Pollock X-UIDL: cb67039974b95b909dfbc445aec130fc We too fly a Lycoming IO-360 and do not have return lines. We installed the engine per the engine manufacturers recommendations. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:23:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel line planning for injection systems Was Said Valve not necessary with Bendix, and the Airflow is very similar, I wouldn't think it required! Can't speak of the Ellison. Never - EVER have had hot start, or cold start problems. When cold engine, trottle cracked, mixture rich, electric fuel pump for say 5 seconds, and start. Hot engine (within an hour or 2 of flying) cracked trottle, mixture closed, electric fuel pump for 5 seconds, crank, when fires mixture rich. It is mandatory with the updraft cooling to have the distribution block mounted in a cool location, and the injector tubes also cool as much a possible. My distribution block is mounted with a homemade bracket on the prop governor pad. The tubes stay low running under the rocker covers, the vertical next to the rocker covers, through the baffles with a rubber grommet to the top mounted injector nozzles. Airflow can supply custom length inlector tubes. The injector tubes mounting is the subject of and A.D. note, and should be followed to the spirit, which is close supports with cushion clamps. Of course the tubes should be inspected routinely. When I majored the engine 4 years ago, I thought the standard Lycoming installation of distribution block and tubes would be better, and installed all new pieces. Within less than 4 hours and only a couple of flights, I switched back. The difficulty in starting a hot engine was bad enough, but the engine wouldn't run at low power settings, nearly quiting on short final. I have a good deal for someone with downdraft cooling for the very near injection tubes, A.D. required mounting hardware, and paperwork from an approved repair station. From: "Darcy & Karen Reed" Subject: Fw: COZY: Fule lines in passenger compartment Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:22:40 -1000 >Ground all airplanes now!!!, or we'll all die!!!! >Tom >Longez Good comment. I worry about Boeing, Airbus, Douglas, etc. only when I fly on their aircraft and since I decide to fly I accept the risk. I have not herd of an aircraft or sub-component that has not had their share of problems. The experimental industry we embark in, by building our own aircraft, is no different. We as Cozy builders are in control of our future by striving to perfect the craft through education. There are people who do not believe that we are in control of the experimental aircraft future. People who modify their aircraft to the point that it/they have a mishap we all pay. Either through an insurance hike/denial or through regulation. I prefer to fly and maintain my aircraft without all the restrictions that could be drafted and implemented. Most of the FARs are from individuals who thought an accident would not happen to them and almost all of the accidents have been contributed to pilot or maintenance error. Sorry to harp, but we have an excellent opportunity to build and fly the aircraft we chose, in the experimental side of aviation. I would hate to have the same restrictions as our counter parts with a standard category certificate issued to their aircraft. Talking has solved some problems, but listening has solved more. I am not sure if that statement applies, but I like it. Back to the topic. I believe most of the aircraft that I have worked on or flown in have fuel lines routed through some portion of the fuselage. It reality it doesn't matter if is routed through the passenger compartment or any other means as long as it is per the aircraft's proven/tested instructions. And I understand the other side of the coin. The manufacture or designer are usually slow to change to new ideas. We should be careful with those urges and think of the others we could effect. Listen to someone who is griping about an FAR and think about how that rule came about I do enjoy the comments and I have taken heed to the errors and pit falls. Mean while I will concentrate on building chapter 13 with the proven plans provided by Nat. Thanks everyone and keep up the good work, Darc From: alwick@juno.com Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:23:21 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Heads up on FC100-002 fuel cap... The fuel caps are made locally in Portland, Or. Usher Enterprises made a design change a few years ago. I had long visit and tour by owner a few months ago. He replaced both of my plastic inserts with the new stainless one. You also want to watch out when adjusting the o-ring tension. Easy to break cap if you don't loosen the locknut before adjust. I broke the little roll pin that holds tab to the stud. The design of cap is not the best IMHO. Owner was nice enough to replace my damaged components. Nice guy. FWIW, he also makes all the RV stuff, wing ribs, etc. Sorry I didn't think to post the info. Excellent description Dave. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.95% complete. On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:52:10 -0500 David Domeier writes: > FC100-002 fuel cap..... > > Two days ago after adding some fuel I noticed the right fuel cap > would not lock in position. The over center tab device that causes > the > O ring to spread would not stay down but popped up about 30° after > being > forced down flat. The left fuel cap behaved normally. > > Today I took both of them apart to determine what was going on. > I > found that the open-close tab rides on an insert which is above the > small O ring around the vertical stem. The tab bottom rotates on > this > insert as it is pushed forward and down which in turn causes the > stem to > rise and that in turn causes the big O ring to expand and seal the > cap > to the fuel tank opening. A very simple, neat device which I believe > Burt Rutan invented about 25 years ago. > > I found is that the left tank cap insert below the tap was made > of > metal. However, the insert under the tab in the right cap was made > of > plastic. It was broken and crimped. The tab could not rotate to the > over center position because it jammed against the broken plastice > and > as a result, the cap could not be locked. > > I called Wicks and spoke to Don about the plastic material of the > right cap insert. He said he had not ever had such a report, but did > check their stock of caps and they all had a metal insert. It's > easy to > check. Just lift the tab and you can see the insert under the tab. > > My fuel caps are about 7 years old. I believe the inserts may > well > have been plastic at one time, but I can't prove it. I got one with > metal and one with plastic, probably when it was changed to metal. > > I suggest that if you have this fuel cap system, check the insert > under the tab. These things have come off inflight and the plastic > insert may have been the cause of it. I made a new insert of .049 > aluminum in about 15 minutes and the cap works fine now. > > dd > > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: N433DP@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:54:05 EDT Subject: COZY: Wing Strakes Hi all Chapter 21 Page 1 drawing B33. Has a hole to view the outlet screen. 1 Is that a 3x5 Hole? 2 Is it centered top to bottom Thanks Doug Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 23:01:28 -0400 From: "Marc J. Zeitlin" Subject: Fwd: COZY: Wing Strakes Doug ? writes: > Chapter 21 Page 1 drawing B33. Has a hole to view the outlet screen. >1 Is that a 3x5 Hole? According to the drawing, it is. >2 Is it centered top to bottom About. It's not critical. All it needs to be is a hole so that you can visually inspect the sump screen. -- Marc J. Zeitlin mailto:marcz@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~marcz/ From: "Jim White" Subject: COZY: Wing Strakes View Hole is Wrong Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:19:41 -0700 Before you cut the view hole in B33, be aware that there is an error on the location of the hole from the spar. Nat may have mentioned it in a previous newsletter, but the view hole in B33 should be 6" from the spar, NOT 3" as shown in the plans. I found this out in time for on my second strake, but too late for the first one. Oh well, I'll just have to use a mirrot to check the left fuel strainer. Jim White N44QT -----Original Message----- From: Marc J. Zeitlin To: Cozy Builders Mailing List Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 8:50 AM Subject: Fwd: COZY: Wing Strakes >Doug ? writes: > >> Chapter 21 Page 1 drawing B33. Has a hole to view the outlet screen. >>1 Is that a 3x5 Hole? > >According to the drawing, it is. > >>2 Is it centered top to bottom > >About. It's not critical. All it needs to be is a hole so that you can >visually inspect the sump screen. > >-- >Marc J. Zeitlin mailto:marcz@ultranet.com > http://www.ultranet.com/~marcz/ > Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:19:51 -0400 From: Gregg Perry Subject: COZY: Builder question Hi everyone, I just got back from a family trip to Wisconsin. I managed to break away on Monday and visit Oshkosh for about 6 hours. As luck would have it, I entered at the gate where the canards were (had) been parked and got to see David Dormeier's VERY nice looking project and Nat's plane at the commercial building. Not much else left by that time. My wife and I tried on every ANR headset that we could find and a unanimous decision as to the most comfortable led to the purchase of two sets for my future plane. I also almost bought a stepladder but... QUESTION: How do you get those impossibly tight joints between the wing and strake junctures? With all the fittings and sanding on my project, there is a 1/8" - 1/4" gap all around. Any help would be appreciated. Gregg Perry From: alwick@juno.com Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 15:25:13 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Builder question ..wing seam line. I just happen to be completing that part of the process right now. There is a small section in the plans that describes wedging a piece of foam in the joint. You are supposed to glue wing side only of that wedge. If you followed that approach, you would end up with crooked seam. I glued both the wing and strake side of the wedge... effectively gluing the wing in place. Then use a straight edge to cut a perfectly straight line down the middle of the wedge. Dissassemble wing from strake, glass the foam wedge piece. Reassemble after cure. Then, go ahead and micro the seam. Once again, you have glued the wing to strake. Now recut with straight edge again and you have perfectly straight, sharp edge at the joint. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in Cockpit Cozy sn 389 driven by stock Subaru 2.5 ltr.97% complete. On Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:19:51 -0400 Gregg Perry writes: > > QUESTION: How do you get those impossibly tight joints between the > wing and strake junctures? With all the fittings and sanding on my > project, there is a 1/8" - 1/4" gap all around. Any help would be > appreciated. > > Gregg Perry > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: "Ugolini, Nick J" Subject: RE: COZY: Builder question ..wing seam line. Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:10:37 -0400 Here some other tips: Velocity: For the long wing seam, they take a 48" straight edge and using the center of the joint as a guide make two marks at each end. Flock and glass (2 BID) over the joint for a smooth surface. Bondo the straight edge to the wing to the original marks, then use a saw blade (my favorite is the Fein Sander cutting disk), cut the joint back open. A perfect straight and re-enforced seam. Berkuk..? : for the joint around the leading edge of the strake... take a piece of the thinnest Alum (.020" or less) wax both sides slip it into the joint. Pack both sides of the dam with micro. When cured, pop the Alum lose and sand to flush. Nick -----Original Message----- From: David Domeier [mailto:david010@earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, August 08, 1999 11:29 AM Cc: cozy_builders@canard.com; gperry@usit.net Subject: Re: COZY: Builder question ..wing seam line. Gregg, To supplement what Al said about the wing/strake joints, I layed up 2 plies of bid across the joint, then carefully marked the middle of it and cut the straight line with the wing attached. The critical part is finding the middle of the joint after the lay up. You can do that with a piece of masking tape running parallel to the joint and measured from the middle before the lay and they transcribed back on tip of the lay up. dd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 23:46:55 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: COZY: Re: Emergency Fuel System >A comment about using a primer to keep an engine running with injector or >carb failure reminded me of a simple emergency fuel system we used in >various aircraft in jungle flying that totally replaced all pumps, >filters, control valves, pressure carb or float carb systems, etc. It >uses the venturi in the carb, a stainless fuel line with an orifice >outlet the same size as your jet in the carb, a simple (brake parking) >valve controlled by a vernier knob on the instrument panel and an extra >line from the header tank to the carb. It worked great. I flew a Helio >for a few years with this system and would check it every week. Pulling >out the vernier knob would turn on the emergency fuel. I shut off the >main fuel valve and adjusted the emergency fuel flow to maintain the >power setting I wanted. Always worked. Seemed strange to fly along with >the whole normal fuel system shut down. I mentioned this thread to another pilot a few weeks ago on a business trip. He told me of a system installed in an amateur built airplane with which he was not familiar. What he described to me sounded like a Falco. The builder didn't like the fuel selector valves available at the that time. Decided to plumb his engine into the right wing tank with no selector valve. He used an electric pump on the left tank to pump fuel to the right during the flight. He had a second pump draining from a separate outlet on the left tank that fed a similarly architectured emergency fuel delivery system to the engine. His fuel management consisted of two switches, only one of which was normally used in flight with a second switch to back up the primary fuel delivery path. Normal operation called for transfering just enough fuel to keep the unbalance inacceptable limits so that the left tank always had more fuel in it than the right. Now, if he just took care of his battery and replaced it when capacity dropped below a level necessary to sustain flight for duration fuel, I'd consider the system to be pretty robust! Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Independence Kansas: the > < Jurasic Park of aviation. > < Your source for brand new > < 40 year old airplanes. > ================================= http://www.aeroelectric.com From: "Jim White" Subject: COZY: Strake Construction Tips Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:32:41 -0700 Having just completed my second strake, I thought I would pass on a few tips I learned from others and a few I added myself. 1. Attach the wing before working on the strake and bondo a 1/4" or so thick template to the end of the main spar that matches the contour of the wing. This is needed so that the strake matches up to the leading edge. 2. When cutting out the top and bottom PVC foam pieces, finish one (top or bottom). The top is the same as the bottom except it is 0.2" longer. All the angles are the same. Use the top or bottom strake as a template by simply shifting it up or down 0.2" accordingly. You might as well make all four top and bottom skins at once. MAKE SURE TO GET THE FIRST ONE RIGHT OR YOU WILL HAVE FOUR WRONG ONES. 3. I placed blocks under the ends of the landing gear struts (front and back) to level the airplane perfectly and give it a solid foundation. I supported the jig table with two saw horses, and four pieces of 2X4's individually clamped to the saw horses. The jig table simply rests on the ends of the 2x4's that are adjusted up or down. 4. INSTALL THE RELEASE TAPE ON THE BACK OF THE JIG TABLE BEFORE ATTACHING IT TO THE MAIN SPAR. 5. Place a block of on top of the spar and place a long clamp from the top of the spar to the jig table beneath to firmly attach the plane to the jig table. Do this close to the fuselage and at the end of the spar. (Like the man said, having too many clamps is like having too much money. It is just not possible.) I did not use any bondo and the jig table never moved relative to the plane, even when getting in and out of it repeatedly to cut out the openings and tape the inside joints. 6. As mentioned in an earlier post, I believe the strainer inspection hole in B33 is marked wrong in the plans. The inspection hole should start 6", not 3" from the spar. 7. For B33 bulkhead reference I clamped a straight edge to the canard bulkhead and strung a string back to a mark on the top of the spar. For the B57 bulk head I simply used a plumb bob hung over the edge of the jig table at BL 57 and attached the other end to a mark at 57" from centerline on the spar. 8. The B.L. dimensions are to the INSIDE face of the bulkhead. Carve the outside (farthest from the fuselage) to get the contours of the bulkheads to match the sweep of the strake. DO NOT CARVE THE INSIDE EDGES. 9. String a line from the leading edge of the template you made in step 1 described above to the fuselage using the leading edge of the bulkheads as a guide. This will ensure the leading edges of the wing and strake come together. 10. 1" spacing is fine for the scoring of the bottom foam to bend around the bulkheads. 11. I used cuts that were 1/2" apart instead of 1" for the top foam. The smaller cuts take longer to cut, but they minimize the flat spot the will occur on the top of the curved part of the strake between the two bulkheads. Make the cuts just after the 1 ply bid layup has cured. If you can make the cuts while the fiberglass is hard but still pliable, you can bend it over the bulkheads to let it finally cure in its final shape. 12. I fully trimmed the strake openings into the fuselage before putting the top on permanently. If you jig the top foam sufficiently, it will match up repeatedly to same place on the fuselage. 13. I wanted to make sure my upper skin was firmly attached to the bulkheads so I made a flange to go on the bulkheads instead of simply stacking flox on the bulkheads. The flox method probably works just fine, but I have heard of some Cozy's developing fuel leaks after time and thought this might minimize the possibility of this occuring. Be forwarned, this modification added several days work to the process! When the top foam is all ready to flox to the bulkheads, I carefully marked the location of the bulkheads on the bottom of the top strake skin. I then turned the top foam over. You only need to do this for the interior fuel tank edges. Do not extend the flanges into the storage area, you can tape those areas like normal. Do the leading edge, but not the trailing edge along the main spar. On top of each bulkhead marking I put a WIDE layer of box sealing tape, followed by a layer of peal ply, one layer of bid tape 2" wide, and peel ply on the outer edges of the 2" bid tape. On this second layer of peel ply, DO NOT PUT THE PEEL PLY WHERE THE BULKHEAD WILL SIT. Err on the cautious side when putting this peel ply. You can always sand the area not peel plyed, but it is difficult to remove peel ply between the flange and bulkhead. Place a thin layer of flox on the bulkheads and place the top on to cure. Let it fully cure for at least a day or the one layer of bid will sag after you pull the top back off. Pop the top off and remove all of the peel ply. Glass the interior corner of the new flange with one layer of bid tape, let cure, trim with dremel, and voila', flanges that perfectly match your strake skin. 14. When you place the top skin to the bulkheads realize that it is a ton of work to tape all the inside edges. But doing the top skin placement and inside tapes in one sitting will save lots of sanding while upside down in the back of your airplane. Good luck, Jim White N44QT "Heavy airplanes are ugly, even if they look pretty!" Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:06:25 -0400 From: kent ashton Subject: COZY: Strake construction Addition to Jim White's tips: Strainer: I bought a couple of 5"-wide stainless steel tea-strainers at a kitchen shop, cut off the rim and flox the screen in the tank. Pretty sturdy and easier than trying to get a piece of flat screen to stay in place. --Kent Ashton From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:23:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Builder question How do you get those impossibly tight joints between the wing and strake junctures? Check the archive for my notes on building the strakes, if you can't find, ask me. Just takes time, nibble a little at a time, there is no rush. When getting close, don't remove anymore material, that you want a gap to be. This is part of the education part of the building process - patience.. Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:02:17 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: COZY: Re: Over Voltage Question >I performed my first engine run in my RV-4 the other day,, and all went >very well, except for a problem with excessive (excessive to me anyway) >voltage. I have a standard, "Vans-issue 35amp alternator with a sealed, >solid state voltage regulater,,, again, from Vans. I am using your crowbar >OV protection module and I have a standard setup of a split-type master, >with a field circuit protected with a 5amp breaker. > >The voltage ranged from 15.1 to as high as 15.8v. Now, I only ran it twice >for five minutes per run so I didn't allow myself to much time for >troubleshooting. >I am fairly confident in the reliability of the voltmeter, curtesy of a >VM1000 which shows a "normal" bus voltage of 12.3 with the engine not >running. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe your OV module triggers at >16v?? In any case, the field breaker did not trip but this still seems very >odd to me as the regulator is pre-set at the factory at 13.8v,, or so I >have been told. A regulator can be confused into believing that the bus voltage is too low and causing the system voltage to run too high. This happens when there is excessive voltage drop between the alternator's output terminals and the regulator. The problem is generally caused by undersized wiring. You're correct that our OV modules are set for 16.0 to 16.5 volts with 16.2 being the room temperaure nominal. The readings you were getting are too low to cause the ovm to trip . . . but getting close. Do you have a voltmeter with some long leads? There are a couple of measurements that would be good to know: While the engine is running and the VM1000 is reporting a high bus voltage, what is: (1) voltage at the regulator's input and ground terminals? (2) voltage across the battery posts? (3) voltage from alternator b-lead and alternator case? If all these voltages are within a few hundred millivolts of the VM1000 reading, then the regulator is bad. If the regulator input voltage (1) is 13.8 and other voltages high, then we need to diagnose some excessive wiring or ground voltage drops. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= < Independence Kansas: the > < Jurassic Park of aviation. > < Your source for brand new > < 40 year old airplanes. > ================================= http://www.aeroelectric.com Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 16:36:18 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: COZY: Builder question ..wing seam line. I'll just add to Al's post that it is very helpful before you do anything to have some reference marks 6" or so away from the intended cut line. Once it is glassed/micro'd over, it's almost impossible to tell where the "middle" is. How do you suppose I know that ? If I remember right, I also just jammed a bunch of foam in there, block sanded it smooth, glassed over it, filled over it as best as I could with dry micro, cut after cure, removed wings and then went about supporting the glass "underneath". -eric alwick@juno.com wrote: > > I just happen to be completing that part of the process right now. There > is a small section in the plans that describes wedging a piece of foam in > the joint. You are supposed to glue wing side only of that wedge. If you > followed that approach, you would end up with crooked seam. > I glued both the wing and strake side of the wedge... effectively gluing > the wing in place. Then use a straight edge to cut a perfectly straight > line down the middle of the wedge. Dissassemble wing from strake, glass > the foam wedge piece. Reassemble after cure. Then, go ahead and micro the > seam. Once again, you have glued the wing to strake. Now recut with > straight edge again and you have perfectly straight, sharp edge at the > joint. From: "John Slade" Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel caps Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:21:30 -0400 Jerry, >fuel caps leaking and someone had so new ones that did not leak I think the "someone" you're looking for is Jack Wilhelmson Wilhelmson@scra.org John Slade Cozy #757 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "George A. Graham" Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel caps On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, Jerry Kennel wrote: > There was some discussion lately about fuel caps leaking and someone had so new ones that did not leak. Could someone tell me which ones the new ones are? Thanks. Great Plains sells plastic "deck fill" type fuel fill assemblies, which include the housing and the screw-in cap. They cost less than $ 20 ea, and may be available in white with a red cap (mine were black). Something similar appears in the West Marine catalog for $ 9. These do not leak nor lock with a key. George Graham RX-7 Powered Graham-EZ, N4449E Homepage Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:27:32 -0500 From: Curt Smith Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel caps At 09:21 PM 8/24/99 -0400, John Slade wrote: >Jerry, > >fuel caps leaking and someone had so new ones that did not leak >I think the "someone" you're looking for is Jack Wilhelmson >Wilhelmson@scra.org > >John Slade Cozy #757 > I just installed a set of Jack's caps (they retain the Brock filler neck, but replace the Brock caps) on my Long and I am very happy with them. Leaks are a thing of the past. Curt Smith LE N86CS Cozy III in progress From: gmellen@juno.com Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 09:34:43 -0400 Subject: COZY: Strakes I am building the fuel strakes for my 3 place cozy using feather lites leading edge kit. I will be closing up the outboard end of the strake with a rib to match the wing. My question is will the OD rib be necessary between this outboard rib and rib R45. The instuctions that come with this kit are only a 1/2 a sheet of paper ! Thanks George Mellen gmellen@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:20:51 -0700 From: hrogers@slac.stanford.edu (Howard Rogers) Subject: Re: COZY: Strakes >My question is will the OD rib be necessary between this outboard rib and >rib R45. >The instuctions that come with this kit are only a 1/2 a sheet of paper ! > > >Thanks > >George Mellen George, I used Featherlite's kit, too, so perhaps I can help. My strakes came out looking beautiful, and I had no leaks, first try! I don't have my plans here, so I don't remember which rib is which, by name. I will just say this: Put the outboard rib on with a little 5-minute mixed with flox, only where it joins the spar front face. Mount the wing, and sand the rib to match it perfectly. Finish out all the work, just as shown, but don't glue this "dummy" rib to the inside of the strake anywhere. When you are done, knock out this rib, because you won't need it any more. The resultant space in the outboard end of the strake can be very useful. I put my stobe power supply in the left one, and I may use the right side space for some remotely mounted somethingorother before I'm finished. -Howard Rogers Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:10:12 -0700 From: "LCDR James D. Newman" Subject: COZY: Re: Strakes Hi Howard, > > In Europe the canard boys are required to have that bulkhead at the end of the strake, and to > put a bulkhead into the end of the wing, and join the leading edge of the wing to the leading edge > of the strake with a 1/2" bolt and the layup schedule used for the wing and center section spar > build up. They (the European FAA) don't like how the wing moves up and down at the strake end as > you're flying along. > Howard Rogers wrote: > Hi, JD, > I seem to remember that Burt Rutan was appalled at the above requirement, and objected to > it strenuously. Yes, I know. I was just relaying an interesting tid bit that I didn't know whether you knew or not since you where talking about a bulkhead at the end of the strakes. > I am not an engineer, but I work with them and for them daily. Any engineering student knows that > you can't add an additional restraint to an already engineered flexible support system, without > analyzing the consequenses very carefully. Very true. > You could, in a misguided attempt to "strengthen", actually shift a load-path in a way that could > encourage a whole new failure mode, including the possibility of effectively weakening the > structure. Very true again. > The wing-to-fuselage-spar-joint would certainly seem a likely candidate for such careful analysis. That's certainly been done on my plane. > Somehow, I doubt if this was done by the European beauracracy that required this knee-jerk "fix" > for a non-problem. The way I understand the story, this was German structures engineers that are part of their FAA staff who analyzed this concern and said that this should be done. Infinity's Forever, JD From: "Nat Puffer" Subject: COZY: 4th wing attach point Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 13:03:07 -0500 Builders, I seem to remember that the aviation authorities in Germany (or was it Switzerland?) required Long EZ builders to put a 4th attachment point for the wings at the leading edge of the strakes on the Long EZ, and Burt objected adamantly saying that it was very poor design practice because you cannot predict how the load would be distributed through 4 attach points. I think Uli adopted this 4th attach point on the Cosy Classic. I have not heard from any Cozy III or Cozy Mark IV builders that they were required to do this. We have the largest number of Cozy builders and Cozys flying in France. Would some of you builders in Europe care to comment? Incidently, I have never noticed any relative movement between the leading edge of the wing and the leading edge of the strake (as someone suggested there might be), even before I filled the joint with clear silicone, and certainly not after. I know of no failures of the wing attach system on Long EZs or Cozys built per plans in either torsion or excess gs. It is worth mentioning that after the centersection spar is installed and before the strakes are built, if you mount a wing on the centersection spar, it is possible to twist the centersection spar by twisting the wing. However, once the strake is built, it is no longer possible. So the strake is very important in reinforcing the centersection spar, providing torsional strength, so the wing cannot twist. This is the reason I don't like to see anyone changing the structure of the strake, like cutting in to the bottom and removing part of the structure. It is also very important not to reduce the spacing between the two outboard wing attach bolts. We noticed AeroCad had done this, and we told them we could not approve it, so they agreed to change it back to the spacing we show in our plans. So be sure the vertical spacing on your outboard bolts is not less than shown in the plans, whether you drilled the holes or someone else did. Best regards, Nat From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:35:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Strakes Aggee with J.D.'s comments, in particular the issue of unknown forces. Think about a 3 legged stool on a rough floor, ALWAYS we know where the load is. The 4th bolt can create loads in any direction, and at the long lever arm, the loads to the original bolts could be sizable, and I'm not worried about the exceptionly large bolts failing, but tearing of fiberglass, at a location that may not be easily seen. Also agree with Nat's comments, never seen movement. On design of caulked joints with good elastic sealant like R.T.V. Normally the allowable joint movement with a well designed joint is 1/4 of the joint width. My joints are 1/8" wide, then the allowable movement would be 1/32", not much! With the almost knife edge of the wing flange is not a well designed joint, and I would expect to require a wider joint. I have never seen a failed sealant joint (sealant torn loose from either side) on an Ez. If someone said they had 1/32" movement at the leading edge, I think that would not be excessive. I frquently fly at higher gross weights than most, have had my share of hard hits of turbulence and landing without any ill effects. I was the one that questioned Burt at the Ez forum, I think it was 1991 or 1992. His comment was don't do it. Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 19:02:54 -0700 From: hrogers@slac.stanford.edu (Howard Rogers) Subject: Re: COZY: Opon cell foam >Hi all > I am looking for a source of open foam , to put in fuel tank , to >prevent sloshing . > Does anyone know where i can find this. > Thanks > Jerry Garrett coze MK_IV #573 I wouldn't reccomend it, Jerry. The baffles do a fine job of preventing sloshing, and several such schemes have been tried to prevent flame propogation in a crash. As far as I know, none of them has ever been very successful, long-term, because they inevitibly decompose to some degree and present a problem with particles and crud in the fuel system, which could BRING ABOUT your need for fire protection in a crash. Reminds me of a true story about a local constable who was helping extricate a pilot from a bent bird, who had run out of fuel, and landed short of a Sothern California runway. The officer's comment (paraphrasing) was something like, "Good thing you had no fuel on board, or you could have burned up in a fire!" --Howard Rogers --Howard Rogers 650-926-4052 hrogers@slac.stanford.edu pager: 650-997-1089 New! email directly to my pager. Try it!: 6509971089@alphapage.airtouch.com (approximately 50 word limit. I'll see no header, so be sure to sign it, and trim off trailing messages, etc.). From: JHTanstaaf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:14:31 EST Subject: Re: COZY: Opon cell foam In a message dated 11/4/99 9:05:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, hrogers@slac.stanford.edu writes: << I wouldn't reccomend it, Jerry. The baffles do a fine job of preventing sloshing, and several such schemes have been tried to prevent flame propogation in a crash. As far as I know, none of them has ever been very successful, long-term, because they inevitibly decompose to some degree and present a problem with particles and crud in the fuel system, which could BRING ABOUT your need for fire protection in a crash. >> This might be a little overcautious. I remember reading about the foam in either Sport Aviation or Kitplanes within the last year. It fills the tank but has such a high porosity that it only results in a <10% reduction in capacity while eliminating sloshing (and more importantly per the manufacturer -- bringing the potential for fire to near 0). Race cars have been using similar materials for years without incident and the new materials were built on this technology with extra attention to the impact of avgas. From: jhocut@mindspring.com Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 08:05:29 -0500 Subject: COZY: Reticulated Urethane Foam (was Opon cell foam) At my last CFI Revalidation Class one of the speakers was an NTSB chief inspector. One of the subjects he touched on was Reticulated Urethane Foam. They've done a fair amount of research on this and are very much supportive of it. As was pointed out previously it's been used in higher end race cars for several years now. One of the EAA officers has additonal information on this material, if anyone is interested let me know and I can search through my notes to see if I can find the name. Jim Hocut Cozy Mk IV #448 - ch 19 From: Militch@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:16:59 EST Subject: Re: COZY: Opon cell foam There was an article on this in Sport Aviation I think within the last year. They listed the vendor. Regards From: "Wendell Best" Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Opon cell foam Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:38:39 -0700 Hello, The foam serves the same purpose as the baffling in the tank does, but it also acts as a fire retardant and reduces out flow of the fuel (not to worry, F-15's and A-10's use the same stuff and it does effect fuel flow). I read something about the safety concerns about private aircraft and this was one of the suggestions (possible new FAR) along with a halon system in the engine bay. The halon system is probably going to be pricy. You might be able to buidl one if the FAA allows it, you just need some sort of fire detection system that detects tempatures around 700 degrees and will produce a visual and/or audio warning in the cockpit. You can then get a regular halon bottle, mount it in the engine bay, rig a cable around the handles that is routed to the cockpit. Check it for operation so that one quick jerk will activate it. You'll probably want to make provisions for disarming the system on the ground (insert the pin back in the bottle). Just some info and some ideas, Wendell Best 217 Fireball Dr. Clovis, NM 88101 (505)769-9001 wbest@ZiaNet.com http://www.zianet.com/wbest ----- Original Message ----- From: J. D. Newman To: Canards - 'R' - Us Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 9:23 PM Subject: COZY: Re: Opon cell foam > Hi Jerry, Howard, Jim and All, > > > Jerry Garrett wrote: > > I am looking for a source of open foam, to put in fuel tank, to prevent sloshing. Does anyone know > where i can find this. > > The latest yet dated info I have is as follows (the area codes have probably changed too): > > **************************************** > > Reticulated Foam for Fuel Tank Flame and Explosion Reduction > aka Safety Foam - Trade Name "Foamex" > > Product Description - Fuel Safety Foam > Sold in "Buns" of 8" x 44" x 110" > Bun is approx. 294 sq. ft. > Average price - $3.00 per board ft. plus S & H > Color - grey for fuel tanks > 29 PPI (pores per inch) > Material - Reticulated Vinyl Foam > Must be cut with a hot wire to retain "clean certification" > (so vacuum and blow it off *real* well if you need to sand it a little to get it to fit; check your > filters extra often for the first year) > > Sources: Pacific Foam POC - Stacey (714) 662-0277 > $800.00 per bun plus $50.00 freight from Irvine, CA > Minimum order - $150.00 > > Wilshire (213) 549-5444 > Minimum order - $300 > > ******************************************* > > You will lose a couple(+) gallons per side. Howard's right that the current baffles are fine. > Jim's info is correct. > I only know of 2 canards (both Long-EZ's) that have burned from an incident (there's probably > more): one caught on fire right after take-off cause he forgot to tighten and test his fuel > fittings under the cowling, landed in a residential area, rolled into a vehicle at the end of the > street - didn't make it; the other was shot down, caught on fire after immediate landing, evidently > from the hot bullets. I don't know of any fires from the tanks ripping open during a crash - no > tearing of metal like those "other" kind of planes have. > HTH. > > > Infinity's Forever, > > JD > > Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 11:26:26 +0000 From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: COZY: fuel cap, vent, ice failures I have seen caps on planes with fine screen made to go over the end of the aluminum fuel vent lines. Originally, I think their purpose was to keep bugs out of natural gas vent lines. Anyone know where I can get a couple? Thanks, Eric From: alwick@juno.com Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 09:27:25 -0800 Subject: Re: COZY: fuel cap, vent, ice failures Eric, you may want to consider using piece of Scotchbrite pad inserted into end of vent. I have low density pad I cut to "T" shape. Insert base of the "T" into vent, cut top portion of "T" to same diam as vent o.d. My pad is not fuel sensitive, and low density material should have 0 effect on airflow. This is same approach used by thousands of Cessna owners who place a nylon scrubbie in their fresh air inlet to keep out the yellow jackets and flies. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, powered by Subaru. Mounting the engine to firewall. ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: "John Slade" Subject: COZY: Chap 21 - extra fuel Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:34:55 -0500 Any Cozy builder's not out partying? I'm working on the strakes and would like to maximize the fuel carrying capacity. (possible long distance flights planned). Plans say to fill the area behind bulkhead TTE with instafoam. I avoid using this stuff wherever possible because of problems with it expanding and contracting after a while, and I'm wondering about leaving out bulkhead TTE or putting a hole in it. The extra area would probably hold about 3 gallons and C of G moment is small. I'd estimate that (with full tanks) we're talking about 20 lb at 10 inches aft. I'll be adding an electric nose lift - say 10 lb at 70 inches forward, so surely this would more than cancel the aft moment of the extra fuel. I could also move bulhead BAB forward an inch or two and loose a little "baggage space". Anyone done this? What am I missing? John Slade, Cozy MKIV #757, progress: http://kgarden.com/cozy West Palm Beach, FL Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:29:04 -0600 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: Chap 21 - extra fuel John, re "Anyone done this? What am I missing?" One guy did it in a Velocity and ended his flying career in an inverted flat spin near Orlando after flying behind a part 121 jet. He could not get the nose down. I wouldn't do it. If you think you'll go for a record, install a tank in the back seat. dd Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:29:03 -0600 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: Chap 21 - extra fuel John, re "I'll be adding an electric nose lift - say 10 lb at 70 inches forward, so surely this would more than cancel the aft moment of the extra fuel." "Anyone done this? What am I missing?" Even with the electric nose lift, I must carry 27 lbs of ballast to keep the CG forward of the aft limit when flying solo. Moving fuel aft is not a good idea.....one Velocity pilot did just that and ended his flying career in and inverted flat spin near Orlando after an upset behind and part 121 jet. Another consideration - you'll have to increase the holding capacity of your bladder relative to increased fuel. I can not sit in the machine long enough to burn a full load of gas as is. At long range cruise it will stay up 6 or 7 hours... I wouldn't mess with the fuel system and Nat will tell you the same thing. dd Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 20:16:55 +0200 From: Jannie Versfeld Subject: Re: COZY: Chap 21 - extra fuel John Slade wrote: I'm wondering about leaving out bulkhead TTE or putting a hole in it. The extra area would probably hold about 3 gallons The Long-Eze does not make use of this bulkhead and I think that this was added for CG considerations. Regards, Jannie Versfeld #673 Starting the strakes as well From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:57:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: COZY: Chap 21 - extra fuel Was asked C.G. limits apply to all situations, including empty and full tanks. Since a normal flight may approach both situations, the allowable loading for a flight should include both empty and full (or whatever you start with). I have a spreadsheet printout that covers nearly every extreme loading light and heavy that is allowable. Its about a half dozen loadings. Then its very easy when having an extreme loading to consult the data, and most of the time no further work need be done. I believe this meets the requirement for carrying weight and balance data and calulations. From: gmellen@us.ibm.com Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:02:48 -0500 Subject: Re: COZY: Chap 21 - extra fuel John, I think that what some people have done in the past (to increase fuel capacity) is to eliminate the baggage cut outs. My 3 place does not have the trailing edge baffles in the strakes. I was told that because of the longer span on the mark IV there was the need to move the fuel forward a bit for C.G. purposes! George Mellen IBM Global Services Bank One Delivery Team gmellen@us.ibm.com 614-244-4438 From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 20:29:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: COZY: Chap 21 - extra fuel The Cosy Classic has fuel against the fuselage sides from the forward of the spar to my featherlite leading edges. The B.L. 23 bulkhead has the half moon openings like the other bulkheads. With the wider fuselage (same as a MKIV at front seat) it doesn't leave much space for luggage any way. My fuel capacity is 52 gallons. The spar length is the same as the MKIII. From: "John Slade" Subject: Re: COZY: Chap 21 - extra fuel Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:09:47 -0500 Builders, >I'm wondering about leaving out bulkhead TTE > or putting a hole in it. A lot of the replies I got to this were private, so I thought I'd summarize the consensus for the archives... DON'T I'll be putting the TTE bulkhead in, per plans. Regards, & happy new year to all. John Slade, Cozy MKIV #757, progress: http://kgarden.com/cozy West Palm Beach, FL From: "Doug Shepherd" Subject: COZY: Extra fuel Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:33:01 -0800 I thought the nicest thing about the stock fuel tanks is that your cg doesn't change as you add or subtract fuel. If you change the strakes, your cg could move as you consume fuel. It wouldn't be much but I don't think I'd want to have to figure it out. Doug Shepherd From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:14:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: COZY: Extra fuel Was said Well the easiest, and I think most proper way is when weighing the airframe, with empty tanks, then fill the tanks, and if you want do it half full or something, and weigh it again. Then you will know the C.G. of the fuel with backwards calculations. But not that easy, first the plane must be weighed in a hangar with the doors closed, even the slightest breeze will due to lift cause erroneous readings. Then the airframe must be moved outside to fuel, and then moved back inside, releveled, and weighed. I have to admit, that as fussy as I am, I only weighed empty tanks, and used the book C.G. for fuel, and the other variable weights (luggage and passengers). By adding various known weights, sizes, shapes, and locations of passengers one could also determine the C.G. of those items. But after one has done numereous calculations of balance, it be comes evident that the front seat, and ballast change the C.G. greatly (and takeoff/landing speeds and distance), where backseat, fuel, and luggage barely move the C.G. The bottom line, the test time is to ensure the aircraft is safe and the test flying must verify and determine the C.G. and weight limits, hopefully within the book limits. A local repair station specializing in Aerostars, weighs every plane they do an annual on, even if there wasn't any reason tha changed the weight and balance. With their electronic scales, everytime we read a scale they were different, until we closed the half open hangar door, and we were behind the closed portion.