Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:27:45 +0200 From: Rego Burger Subject: COZY: PRIMING CAUTION >>>Nick wrote..edited Problem: A soft spot on was found on the canard found during the 100 hr inspection. The tap test indicated delaminated of the foam, approximately 2" by 3". ...... there was no foam in the canard! I The previous owner had repainted the canard, and must of wiped it with solvent. Big mistake. The repairs were basic, replace the foam, re-glass.<<< Thanks Nick! I think this is a good warning for even first time painters. ALL areas having Polystyrene Foam are at risk here, PVC is more resistant to thinners. I recommend preparing any polystyrene area very carefully in the primer stage to prevent this. Use airdrying primers ( not epoxy type ) with as little or no solvent. I have heard of some being water based, still looking for them in our market. Last resort paint primer by brush or squeegee on these sesitive areas solvent free. Rego Burger, web site: http://home.intekom.com/glen/rnb.htm (home e-mail) mailto:rnb@intekom.co.za From: rfisher@spacetech.com Subject: Re: COZY: PRIMING CAUTION Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 19:04:18 EDT On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Rego Burger wrote: >I think this is a good warning for even first time painters. >ALL areas having Polystyrene Foam are at risk here, PVC is more >resistant to thinners. >I recommend preparing any polystyrene area very carefully in the primer >stage to prevent this. >Use airdrying primers ( not epoxy type ) with as little or no solvent. I >have heard of some being water based, still looking for them in our >market. Last resort paint primer by brush or squeegee on these sesitive >areas solvent free. I'm confused here. Does cured epoxy/fiberglass allow solvent to permeate (sp?) it that easily? It was suggested that the painter 'wiped' the surface with a solvent. Most solvents I'm used to working with will flash off very quickly when used alone. However, most paints contain solvents and when applied, do not necessarily flash off that quickly. If the solvent alone was able to disolve the foam in the few seconds before it evaporated, what happens when it takes an hour or so to flash off from the paint? Are we at risk of melting our foam by the simple act of painting our aircraft? Can you chemical types out there set me straight? See ya, Russ Fisher rfisher@spacetech.com From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:34:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: PRIMING CAUTION Rfisher writes This is a rare occurance of the foam dissolving, I would tend to believe that there is something we don't know, other wise there would be alot more problems. I do not recommend any lacquer based primers since the bond is poor, resulting in easy chipping. It appears at this time best results are Polyurethanes and acrylic urethanes. The stick with the whole system including the primer/ surfacer/ sealer. Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:06:52 +0200 From: Rego Burger Subject: Re: COZY: PRIMING CAUTION -Reply Simply put, A wet layer of paint on a surface with polystyrene core and a pin-hole or two would mean subsurface disolving. Solution: Close all pin-holes before painting. Rego. Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:10:00 +0100 From: blecoq Subject: COZY: POLYFIBER finishing products Hi Everybody I am still investigating for the finishing products to be found in Europe . Receiving Sports Aviation ( I am EAAer as lots of you ) I read Ron Alexander article on painting on last month magazine with a lot of interest. I send him an Email to ask him if he knew products matching what he was talking about in Europe. He replied I should access the www.polyfiber.com site and use their new product line designed for finishing composite. I did look at it. It look like really promising. And there is a provider referenced in Belgium. That is very close to Paris. (Shipping hazardous goods is regulated and expensive overseas). Has any one used it already or what do you think about it? Thanks to all of you Benoit LECOQ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 18:52:02 -0500 (EST) From: "George A. Graham" Subject: Re: COZY: POLYFIBER finishing products On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, blecoq wrote: I should access the > www.polyfiber.com site and use their new product line designed for > finishing composite. I did look at it. It look like really promising. > And there is a provider referenced in Belgium. That is very close to > Paris. (Shipping hazardous goods is regulated and expensive overseas). > Has any one used it already or what do you think about it? I have filled and primed my wings with the Polyfiber Super-Fil and the Smooth Prime. They are wonderful ! They are not hazardous. My research is that you do not need the Silver Shield, but to each his own. Get the new free 36 page booklet ASAP. Good Luck ! George Graham ca266@freenet.buffalo.edu (716) 874-3277 Modified Eracer - Mazda Powered Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:02:49 -0500 From: Kent Ashton Subject: Re: COZY: POLYFIBER finishing products I'm using Polyfiber's Smooth Prime water-based primer to refinish a Cozy but I haven't decided whether it's the best way to go. I've sprayed a few cars with other products and it doesn't behave like other primer I've used. It's so watery that it runs in a heartbeat and you really have to spray it thin to avoid runs on a vertical surface (keep a brush handy to brush out runs). Since you have to spray it so thin, it doesn't build up very much so you better have a really smooth surface to start with. I sprayed a canard with several passes, let it dry for about a week and it sanded nicely. I had to spray one more light coat to fill some spots, sanded it the next day and it looks fine On the other hand, I built up a thick layer on my canopy with about five or six passes over a period of time on a warm spring day, letting the primer dry for a few minutes each pass. I waited a couple of days and began to wet-sand it. It apparently wasn't dry all the way down and began to peel off and bubble up in spots. I decided to scrape it all off and try again. In another experiment, I added about 20% dry micro and brushed it on some wheel pants. It went on thick but it wasn't possible to get a smooth surface--tends to run and clump up--although it sanded out OK. It did seem to fill pin holes pretty well but not every one. I'd say if you have a very smooth fiberglass surface, well filled, you might be happy with it. Polyfiber calls it a primer not a primer-surfacer and I think I'd be happier with more of a filler-type primer. blecoq wrote: I should access the > www.polyfiber.com site and use their new product line designed for > finishing composite. I did look at it. It look like really promising. Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:11:38 +0100 From: blecoq Subject: COZY: POLYFIBER PRODUCTS Hello from France Ok I goofed on that one. I decided this morning to drive up to Charleroi and meet my polyfiber provider. He then showed me how to steer the smooth prime and how long it takes. I actually saw it and could not believe how different the product was from what I was using yesterday. It is really thick cream and we did not have that yesterday. So I am back home and considering I might be doing it myself because there is no reason to have a sanded product applied by somebody else. Also we sanded what we had done yesterday and the fuselage looks just fine so the crisis is over and I decided to give a break to-morrow . I need to think a bit on all that . Thanks for the answers. Beno=EEt Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:38:26 -0800 From: jon goldenbaum Subject: COZY: Smooth Prime Help from Poly Fiber Dear Mr. Lecoq, We were traveling this weekend and just had a chance to unload Email. Sorry you had problems applying our Smooth Prime, I wish I could have talked to you at the time of the problem. First, let me say we fully stand by our products. Over the past two years, more and more composite builders are using Smooth Prime, Silver Shield and Top Gloss. Their popularity is growing rapidly. My first question to you is: do you have a copy of our application manual? We have found that the products are so different, you MUST have complete instructions. Professional painters have little real experience with these new systems, we find homebuilders do a fine job with them if they simply read and follow the manual. Our intent is to have homebuilders apply our products. I will air ship you a copy of the free manual at our expense if you do not have one. Please go no further without one. As you might expect with any new system, we test and improve daily to insure we have the best possible product. About six months ago, we found a way to change the formulation of Smooth Prime, Silver Shield and Top Gloss to give it better durability and make it easier to apply. Even earlier last year, we changed the formula to make less prone to settle in the can. All of our current products are crosslinked and come with a portion of crosslinker and a syringe. The numbers on our cans are batch numbers. Batch numbers include the year, month, and number of batches made. 970115, for instance was made in 1997, in January (01) and is the 15th sequential batch made. Anything you have with a 97 date is our old formulation. It was part of an initial stock Airtronic Aviation brought to Belgium a year ago. I offer to immediately air ship you quantites of our most current products. You can tell if it is current because it will have a 98 batch number. All 98 batch numbers of Smooth Prime, Silver Shield, and Top Gloss paint are cross linked and have no settling problems in the can. Notify me immediately of what you need and I will air ship it to you. Since it is all non-HAZMAT it is airshipped with no delay. To answer your other questions: 1. You may use any solvent 2 pack polyurethane paint over our products. 2. You will get a good bond of any batch number product, 97 or 98. We prefer that you have 98 batch numbers since it is the most current. In summary I ask that you hold off further painting until you get all good products and read the application manual. I am ready to ship to you at once, free of charge. We want you to have a successful experience with our products and feel that you have been caught at the end of a long supply line of changing and improving products. In the states, we are selling our products direct from the factory to preclude these problems and to give us the chance to talk to all our customers. It is a new product to distributors and they are sometimes behind on the most recent improvements. Airtronic is one of our best European distributors and we will work with him to insure you are fully satisfied with our products. A few techniques: 1. Paddle all solids from the bottom of the can, then put on a paint shaker for 10 minutes or use an electric drill mixer to disperse all solids. 2. Crosslink all products per the new manual. Thin only according to instructions with water. 3. Smooth Prime may be applied with a fine foam roller. This is faster, and less messy than spraying. 4. Allow all coats to dry thoroughly before applying the next. The longer you wait, the better. These products are different, the water must be allowed to evaporate. 5. Dry sand Smooth Prime and Silver Shield. 6. Apply Top Gloss with a quality spray gun with at least 50 pounds of air at the gun. Apply full coats without flooding to the point of runs. Wait at least six hours between coats, overnight is better. We are confident you will like our products. When applied correctly, the latest versions of our waterbornes are easy, safe, and give great results. We stand by to ship you what you need and stay with you until you are satisfied. Jon Goldenbaum From: N11TE Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:12:34 EST Subject: Re: COZY: Smooth Prime Help from Poly Fiber In a message dated 98-03-23 21:41:13 EST, info@polyfiber.com writes: << First, let me say we fully stand by our products. Over the past two years, more and more composite builders are using Smooth Prime, Silver Shield and Top Gloss. Their popularity is growing rapidly. >> To all builders: I want to double confirm this company's effort to go the extra mile to make sure this paint system works and that the proper techniques and materials are used. I wanted to use their products because they are water based and do not cause a problem (house odor) for me to use in my basement workshop. By chance, I called the factory to double check the means of application I wished to use. They promptly told me that the gallon of smooth prime that I had just purchased and received from Wicks had been improved and they immediately sent me... at no charge... another gallon of the updated formulation direct from the factory. There were no ifs ands or buts. They really go the extra mile to stand behind their products! As to the product itself... I initially tried to apply the primer with a foam roller. And it does work. But, the surface was hard to build up thick enough with a smooth coverage in order to block sand. My solution was to buy a small, very cheap, "touch up" paint gun and thin slightly with water. I covered in a number of light coats. This worked very well! Let me tell you this stuff is tough! When crosslinked and cured, it is almost impossible to get off any metal parts and even your hands. Based upon my experience with this company and the smooth prime product, I can heartily recommend them to all builders. Tom Ellis N11TE@aol.com Cozy MKIV plans #25 AeroCanard 540 Subject: Re: COZY: Cozy Newsletter From: mbeduhn@juno.com (Mark W Beduhn) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 09:54:51 EST On Fri, 03 Apr 1998 19:46:12 PST "Mara Liston" writes: >Hi Mark, > > >Now that I'm writing I thought I should tell you that I think the >pictures I've seen of your plane are stunningly beautiful. Giles and >I both really like the paint job. We are a very atracted to red because >my parents sailboat is bright red and even though it was painted 4 >years ago, nearly every time we're out racing someone comments on how nice >it looks. Did you do the paint yourself? I've heard that red is usually > >harder to make look perfect, did you find it harder than the white? >We've been considering at least putting some red on our cozy... > >Thanks, > >Mara Liston >N559CZ > Mara, Thanks for the compliment about my paint job. Yes, I did it myself. I used the Dupont Chroma clear system (Base coat with a clear coat). I found it to be very easy to apply, looks great and is easy to touch up. The color was no harder to apply than the white. Actually though, the bottom is purple and not red. For some reason when I got my prints of the plane flying, the color appeared to be red or maroon. Mark Beduhn Cozy N494CZ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Subject: COZY: Re: Your Cozy Mk 4 From: mbeduhn@juno.com (Mark W Beduhn) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 22:21:19 EDT On Sun, 05 Apr 1998 12:56:23 -0500 David Domeier writes: >Mark, > >I've decided to use Dupont also but I have one nagging >question....does the clear coat provide sufficient UV protection? >The specs say it is a UV barrier but nothing more. Did you >provide for additional UV protection or do you think the clear coat is >adequate? > >Thanks. David, I am counting on the primer (grey) as my primary UV barrier. I figure that any UV protection that the clear coat gives is a bonus. Mark _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 09:36:04 EST From: "KEN SARGENT" Subject: Re: COZY: UV protection Primers I'm not a paint expert, but I have put a lot of samples under UV light testing. Most paint systems use a clear binder resin with a lot of Titanium Oxide (especially shades of white) as an opacifier to provide coverage and to bring up the color from the tint. The tints are translucent organic dyes, which usually have the UV problem and fade. The organic dyes use additives for their UV stability. For dark shades carbon black is the quickest way to opacity the way the Titanium Oxide does for the light shades. Some gray paint systems mix the two to yield the gray. Sanding primers also halve other inorganic particles added to ease the sanding which should block a fair amount of light. I think carbon black is realitively light, and forms fuzzy balls in the paint. I think fummed silica and chalk dust are much heavier. I have looked at paint samples in an SEM and you can clearly see the TiO particles imbedded in a pale tint binder. If the paint is very weathered TiO looks like bolders projecting from the paint surface. Give the small diameter of the TiO, even a small percentage mixed throughout 3-5 mils of paint will block a fair amount of UV as the light tries to penetrate through the paint thickness. Most paints will list how much TiO is used. Clear coats sometimes us TiO the same way, but I have seen some work good, and others work miserably. Sometimes painting contractors will use a less UV performing color coat if a clearcoat is going on top, and disastrous fading results. For what its worth Ken Sargent Cozy #555 ken_sargent@wda.disney.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: COZY: UV protection Primers Author: Rego Burger at DISNEY-WDW-INTERNET Date: 4/8/98 4:41 AM For the benefit of builders outside the USA... Can some paint experts help us with the principle on this one. Undercoat or primers that are dark (grey) I believe will cancel most UV rays that penetrate white paint. Must these paints have "carbon black" in or not? I have heard the carbon black is the "only" effective barrier to UV. The drawback with "carbon black" primers is they are"heavy" compared with "normal primers." If colour "block" does the trick good enough why can't we prime with plain BLACK first coat then grey ( low bleed through for white ) and then the white top coats? Rego Burger, web site: http://home.intekom.com/glen/rnb.htm (home e-mail) mailto:rnb@intekom.co.za RSA Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:27:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "George A. Graham" Subject: COZY: RE: [canard-aviators] Ultra Violet Protection (fwd) In answer to Rego's question about UV protection: George Graham ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:00:33 -0600 From: "Hunter GA (Gary) at MSXSCC" To: Canard mail list , "'George A. Graham'" Subject: RE: [canard-aviators] Ultra Violet Protection > George Graham wrote: > > I called DOW Chemical Epoxy Resin Tech Support a few months ago for help > with whether or not to use "Silver Shield UV Barrier" over the primer. > When it comes UV degradation of composites, I like to refer people to a paper given in 1980 at the 35th Annual Tecnical Conference of the Reinforced Plastics/Composite Institute of The Society of the Plastics Industry. (SPI) The paper was titled "Real Life Aging Properties of Composites" by Grumman Aerospace Corporation, Bethpage NY. In summary, they measured the physical properties of fiberglass E-2 Rotodomes, A-6 Nose Radomes, and E-2 Upper Vertical Tail Surfaces that had been in service for up 19 YEARS !!!! Some without paint. They had starting data from when the parts were made, and data after service to compare. In my opinion, the study was well done. This is a quote from the abstracts conclusion: "The results available after the completion of 90% of the tests show that, when properly painted, fiberglass parts do not degrade to any significant extent. Graphite and boron parts may require additional protection." Under the Conclusion they wrote: "When properly protected, fiberglass components do not show any appreciable structural degredation after 20 years of normal service including climatic and operational environmental extremes." Also discussed in the paper was the fact that non-painted composites exposed to high altitude UV retained some 80+% of their expected physical properties values. That loss was primarily because of the defects in exposed surface layer. After removal of the degraded surface layer (machined away), the composites showed no signifcant degradation. So, what is "properly painted, and properly protected". The composite parts in this study where painted with regular old alkyd paints of yesteryear. No special silver or black pigments or anything like that. A good paint is all that is required, and not just a whisper coat either. Today, the fine urethane paints that are available have Pigment Volume Concentrations sufficient to block U.V. light from penetrating the coating and attacking the composite AND subsequently the styrofoam underneath. Want proof - take your wheel pants that have been painted and put it on your head. (yes - you will look funny.) Go outside and try to look at the sun thru the wheel pant. NO Sun Light - NO UV. Simple as that. Your decision to NOT use Silver Shield was just and well founded. Enjoy the weight savings. GARY A. HUNTER Technical Service Representative Epoxy Resins & Curing Agents Shell Chemicals - USA Toll Free in North America - 800-832-3766 International - 713-246-8295 Facsimile - 713-241-1606 E-Mail - gahunter@shellus.com From: "Nat Puffer" Subject: Re: COZY: RE: [canard-aviators] Ultra Violet Protection (fwd) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:52:16 -0500 Dear Folks, I agree with Mr. Graham's posting that most finish paints have enough pigment in them to block out UV, even if the underlying primer does not have a UV barrier. It is interesting that the Voyager, which flew around the earth non-stop, was not even painted underneath, to save weight. Of course, none of us would want our airplanes to be unpainted underneath. The bottom line is that most high-build primers that I have used are heavily pigmented, as well as the finish coat, so if you do a good job of finishing, you need not worry about UV damaging the fiberglass--besides, most of us keep our airplanes in hangars most of the time, anyway. Regards, Nat Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 08:52:34 -0700 Subject: COZY: Finishing, need ideas From: alwick@juno.com (ok How) Have just started the sanding process on my plane. 1) It appears that the source for pinholes is primarily due to air trapped while mixing. Has anyone tried pulling a vacuum on the micro batch for a few minutes, prior to spreading? 2) I seem to be unable to get a real thick layer of micro spread. It appears thick prior to spreading, but flows afterwards.This flowing causes me to have to apply micro,sand, micro, sand. Would rather just sand once. It's almost like starting over from scratch each time I micro. How do I judge if micro has enough balloons? 3) I'm doing wet sanding per excellent article by Dave Knox. But still feel very ignorant of this process. What are the most important things to improve this finishing process? Is an air board a big asset? What are the keys? Thanks for your ideas. I don't need a show winner, just something that is complete in the 90's. -al wick 77% comp. Cozy MkIV sn 389 with stock Subaru 2.5 engine. Computerized cockpit. Done building components, now have to sand, spend, sand. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 18:50:40 -0400 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: Finishing, need ideas Al, Re ") I seem to be unable to get a real thick layer of micro spread. It appears thick prior to spreading, but flows afterwards.This flowing causes me to have to apply micro,sand, micro, sand. Would rather just sand once. It's almost like starting over from scratch each time I micro. How do I judge if micro has enough balloons?" Having just completed 2 years of filling, sanding, filling,sanding....it sounds like your micro is too wet. I think it should go on looking like icing on a wedding cake...sort of like little white caps everywhere. The dryer it goes on the easier it is to sand. Pin holes have a life of their own. If I were doing it again, it would try Poly Fiber's "pin hole filling" primer on a small piece to see how it works. dd Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:26:14 -0500 From: Kent Ashton Subject: Re: COZY: Finishing, need ideas ok How wrote: > > 2) I seem to be unable to get a real thick layer of micro spread > 3) I'm doing wet sanding. What are the most important things Using West epoxy and west filler, I mixed in filler until I got a fairly thick mixture which tended to hold it's irregular shape in the mixing cup when stirred. I found if I went beyond that, It was very hard to spread a thick layer smoothly. Less filler and it was too hard to sand. I was able to spread on a layer perhaps 1/8" thick in some spots. Go over it gently from two to 5 strokes with the 6" squeegee to get a surface which is fairly even. But you still want a thick layer IMHO. On places I used epoxy and micro, I found it harder to spread evenly and had more pinholes. After it was hard, I found I could sand one side of a wing in about 2 1/2 to 3 hours using Knox's method. On one side, I had so many thin spots after I began to see fiberglas that I the micro'd the whole surface again. On subsequent sides, I put enough on that I only had to touch up 10-15 spots lightly to even it out. If you have bad pinholes, I suggest after the wing is contoured, to go back over it with a thin layer of West and their collodial silica filler which is very smooth and fills them well. I used dry sanding for all sanding up to primer, them wet-sanded all the primer/filler and straight primer. Some mistakes I made: (1) Putting on filler too thin and having to come back twice. Much easier to put it on heavy, one time. (2) Used 36 grit too long, had some big scratches which were hard to fill. (3) I used gray epoxy paint and micro as a pinhole filler, which worked pretty well and I sprayed on a yellon guide-coat of straight epoxy. My guide coat was too thick and it took a lot of sanding just to get through the guide coat. (4) After wet sanding, it looked pretty smooth but I should have come back with another thin coat of epoxy paint+micro and guide coat to really get a flawless surface. I still see the occasional defect. (5) left too much filler and primer on the control surfaces which screwed up their balance. (6) tried to paint an aileron with no primer. Pinhole disaster Most important thing IMHO, use filler and guide coats until you don't see any flaws. I'd like to have an air board but I'm afraid of getting oil from the tool or compressor on the surface of the work. --Kent A. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:53:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Finishing, need ideas Kent Ashton writes <2 coats of micro (sound like a lot)> All of my large surfaces, and most of the others took about 6 coats to get an acceptable surface. To get a flat surface takes a lot of work! Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 08:01:32 -0400 From: bil kleb Subject: Re: COZY: Finishing, need ideas Kent Ashton wrote: > > I'd like to have an air board but I'm afraid of getting oil from the > tool or compressor on the surface of the work. i've read/heard a lot of comments like this; don't auto body shops have the same problem? does anyone know how they cope with this issue? it seems that if this were an insurmountable problem you wouldn't see all those airtools in autobody shops ... -- bil Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 07:53:27 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: COZY: Finishing, need ideas I've now finished most of one plane which makes me no expert, but I can tell you what I did regarding air tools. I used both an air file and a DA sander. I bought inexpensive ones from Harbor Freight, the imported ones. I used a 5 HP compressor which provided plenty of air, I suppose you could use a smaller one, I just don't have any experience doing so. I did not use an oiler on the air line (did use a water trap) , but when they would get close to seizing up, I'd place a small drop of oil directly in the tool and run if for a little while away from my project. I still do the same for my die grinder as well. While this is no recipe for tool longevity, they have lasted so far although they are more prone to freezing up at times. So, if you are willing to think of them as disposable, I'd not worry too much about oil contamination because you're not using any to speak of. As for specifically using an air file, I found that I could sand much faster by hand. I would not buy one again, although I've wondered if I had bought an expensive one to begin with, would it do a better job? The DA is great for the finer grits and wet sanding with the 3M line of Hook It products. -eric bil kleb wrote: > Kent Ashton wrote: > > > > I'd like to have an air board but I'm afraid of getting oil from the > > tool or compressor on the surface of the work. > > i've read/heard a lot of comments like this; don't auto body shops have the > same problem? From: "Wilhelmson, Jack" Subject: RE: COZY: Finishing, need ideas Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:30:24 -0400 Al: There is no magic solution to the finishing problem, and everyone develops their own solution. Here is mine: 1. I mix the micro as thick as possible. Except in fillet areas. In fillet areas I mix it as thin as possible or use Flox and micro combination. 2. I use micro on areas that will need to flex, such as around cowling fasteners, canopy edges etc. Use flox instead. 3. On large surfaces use a thin coat of epoxy to get the thick micro to spread on easily. All my sanding is done dry (to avoid moisture left under the paint) with a professional electric quarter sheet sander. Start with grade 34 and work up to 100 for final sanding. Use thick Micro for contouring only. Use primer with two colors for surface final surface preparation. If primer builds more than 5 mils thick(about four coats). Sand it off and start over with micro. I have found that the surface roughness of the micro before primer application is directly proportional to the ability to feel and see variations. When you think you have a surface ready for primer, sand it with 100 or finer paper and then close your eyes and run your hand over it. If you can feel variations it is not ready for primer yet. One or two coats of primer sanded between coats is ideal. 4. Fill pin holes with one coat of thin micro squeegee on with no excess. Sand very lightly before putting on primer. Large stubborn pin holes that refuse to fill can be made to fill by a abrasive blast or by by using a dremel tool with a tiny burr to roughen the surface of the pin hole crater. 5. I use urethane sanding primer called URO available from dupont auto body suppliers in two colors. 6. Some people actually put on a light coat gloss finish paint to allow them to detect imperfections. They then sand this coat off. Don't use URETHANE paint for this because it is very tough to sand. > -----Original Message----- > From: alwick@juno.com [SMTP:alwick@juno.com] > Sent: Sunday, May 31, 1998 11:53 AM > To: cozy_builders@canard.com > Subject: COZY: Finishing, need ideas > > Have just started the sanding process on my plane. > 1) It appears that the source for pinholes is primarily due to air > trapped while mixing. Has anyone tried pulling a vacuum on the micro > batch for a few minutes, prior to spreading? > 2) I seem to be unable to get a real thick layer of micro spread. It > appears thick prior to spreading, but flows afterwards.This flowing > causes me to have to apply micro,sand, micro, sand. Would rather just > sand once. It's almost like starting over from scratch each time I > micro. > How do I judge if micro has enough balloons? > 3) I'm doing wet sanding per excellent article by Dave Knox. But still > feel very ignorant of this process. What are the most important things > to > improve this finishing process? Is an air board a big asset? What are > the keys? > > Thanks for your ideas. I don't need a show winner, just something that > is > complete in the 90's. > > -al wick > 77% comp. Cozy MkIV sn 389 with stock Subaru 2.5 engine. Computerized > cockpit. > Done building components, now have to sand, spend, sand. > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:15:47 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: Finishing, need ideas From: alwick@juno.com (ok How) Hey guys, really really appreciate the ideas. Many good ones that include things I didn't have a clue about. Even after reading all the archives. Jack, I pressed the wrong button and wiped out your message. Real good content. Can you resend? I'm going to take the time to digest the messages soon as it starts raining here again. We have had two days of sun, am out flying my SLOW c150. It's been almost a month since we've had any sun. On Sun, 31 May 1998 12:08:30 -0500 (CDT) cdenk@ix.netcom.com writes: >: Although the micro leaves pinholes, they can be filled by hard pressure squeeging a >micro/cab-o-sil slurry to fill the pinholes, but leaving ONLY a very thin coating of >epoxy (only what went into the pores) everywhere else. > Sounds good Carl, I'll try it! >>How do I judge if micro has enough balloons? >: No DRY micro will have a dull (dry appearance), and definately doesn't flow. If you >don't break a stirring stick occasionly, you need more micro. Dry micro is for filling, >where due to the volume, light weight is needed. Looks like that was it. Mixed with few more balloons it doesn't flow as much. >: What are you wet sanding?? Primer only gets wet sanded. 220 grit dry >finest for micro and glass. wet sanding the micro. works quite well. Do a section, let it dry for day or two, then add micro. No dust, no clog. > >Look in the archives for my finishing article about a month ago. It goes into much >detail. My Cosy still looks good after 600 hours in 4+ years, ask others that have seen >it for their opinion.. If you can't find the article, let me know, and I'll attach it. >Will your mailer handle text file attachments? I'll check the ol archives again. I have them all. Juno won't accept attachments and has a 30k limit per message. I have good info now. Thanks a bunch!! -al _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:43:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Finishing, need ideas Westland writes I have a domestic "Detroit" the original DA sander, and itcosts more but doesn't freeze up. Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:46:53 -0400 From: Eddie VANN <100740.3723@compuserve.com> Subject: COZY: Finishing I have learned a lot from the recent exchange on finishing which is important as this is the biggest single task in copmpleting the aeroplane. I would like to add two comments 1) instead of painting to see imperfections, simply throw a bottle full of water over the surface. The sheen of the water simulates the paint gloss and aids visualisation of waves etc. If you view this by the light of linear neon tubes or the transparent panels in the hangar roof, the imperfections are easy to locate. 2) I seem to remember that someone talked about using a sheet of peel ply over the micro. We did my aeroplane using repeated sequences of fill & sand. It seems that we could have saved a lot of work on the convex (i.e. nearly all) surfaces by putting peel ply on top of the micro to limit it's running and smooth it's surface. Is this so? Please note that I am not suggesting using peel ply all over the last glass layup. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 19:52:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Finishing Eddie Vann writes Micro should NEVER be thick (dimension) enough and thin (viscosity) enough to run. This is heavy, remember Burt: "Throw it up, if it comes down, its too heavy for an airplane." The only time its permissible to use micro that is thin enough to run, is when you are filling pinholes and scratches, and then everything gets squeeged off except whats in the very small voids. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 06:38:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: COZY: Deltron Replacement Stopped by my local Ditzler outlet yesterday. They indicated that eventually Deltron will be phased out. The suggest the "CONCEPT" "DCC" family which is still an acrylic Urethane. The data indicated it is very similar to "Deltron" "DAU" family. This means it is touch-up able with not being able to see. If anyone has used let us know. From: "Hunter GA (Gary) at MSXSCC" Subject: RE: COZY: Deltron Replacement Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:21:30 -0500 > If anyone has used let us know. > I have used the CONCEPT product and I like it a lot. It seems to be a bit of an improvement in application. Less likely to run, orange peel, etc. Gary Hunter EAA Technical Counselor Vari-Eze - N235GH gahunter@shellus.com From: "Brown, Michael" Subject: RE: COZY: Deltron Replacement Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:22:00 -0700 I painted my plane with Concept and was quite pleased with the results. I'm no pro, but with some practice I can get a decent finish, although I tend to err on the side of orange peel, rather than allow runs. Concept is somewhat unique compared to today's automotive finishes in that it is a single stage system. Most of the car paint in use today consists of a base color coat followed by clear gloss. A fellow cozy builder at HHR used the 2-part auto system with good results, but I liked Concept since you only have to shoot top coat once (less chance for runs, dust, screw ups, etc.). PS: It is also offered for sale in So. Calif., formulated to meet the local air quality standards. michael.brown@alliedsignal.com Cozy (3), N97PZ Date: Fri, 5 Jun 98 8:06:04 EDT From: "Nick J Ugolini" Subject: RE: COZY: Deltron Replacement I have used PPG Concept and had excellent results. Much easier to shoot than Imron. I used a cheap $100 gravity cup HVLP sprayer (Harbor Freight has the same one for $80) with Very Good results. Concept was used on my wings, and on my propeller (which I also clear coated.) I really couldn't tell much difference clear coating the propeller (I did it for additional rain protection). The really nice thing about concept is that after you spray it you look for pin holes and areas which need extra paint. I just took a paint brush and touched up the "bad spots". Between 24-48 hrs after painting you can use 1200 or 1500 grit and wet sand the whole surface. Use a rubber squigee to wipe the surface while sanding to look for orange peel and to sand off the runs. Power compound with Micro Fine grinding compound, then buff out with a Finishing compound. Your surface will look like glass. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:39:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: COZY: comparing canard to main wing incidence Wilhelmson writes Most have been finished first with no problems, pay attention to dimensions, not just what the instructions show, but include checking all leading and trailing edges numerous times when building. Waiting on painting is an invitation for paint not sticking due to oil and other contaminants getting into the porous surface. My recent testing of props ( should be in this CSA newsletter) indicated a severe penalty after sanding a prop with 600 grit paper! Since typically prior to painting we might be sanded with 320 (twice a course), this could effect performance. I think someone recently did that with not good results. From: Cozy7971@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:17:34 EDT Subject: COZY: Painting Questions In preparation for painting the Cozy I am experimenting on painting parts of one car and all of another. Better that I should screw up a '79 Chevy then a Cozy. I bought a buffer from Sears this weekend to buff the paint out. The question is what do I use for a buffing compound and how do I use it? Can I use the same stuff for the Plane? They sold me a clear lacquer (sp??) to spray over the paint. Can I use the same stuff on the plane or does this require something special. The price on the clear lacquer seems pretty low. Does anyone know of differences between painting a car and the Cozy? Thanks Dick Finn Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:19:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "George A. Graham" Subject: COZY: Re: Heat and WestSystems vs Super Fill On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Rego Burger wrote: Good ideas cut. > "All the above demonstrates the measures we take to build aeroplanes." I recently ran out of Polyfibers SuperFill, and went back to the West/ micro mix while waiting for a shipment. Forget it. Throw it out! The West epoxy shrinks terribly, which makes it almost useless. The SuperFill is lighter, probably cheaper, and does not shrink ! Your fill jobs take one tenth the time. Get the three gallon kit (I did this time). Yes, I should get commision! George Graham RX-7 Powered EZ, N4449E ca266@freenet.buffalo.edu From: SWrightFLY@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:43:20 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Heat and WestSystems vs Super Fill In a message dated 98-07-21 08:23:20 EDT, ca266@freenet.buffalo.edu writes: << Forget it. Throw it out! The West epoxy shrinks terribly, which makes it almost useless. >> Could you expand on this? I've been using the West for 2 months now in the finishing process with great results. What is shrinking? Steve Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:41:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "George A. Graham" Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Heat and WestSystems vs Super Fill > In a message dated 98-07-21 08:23:20 EDT, ca266@freenet.buffalo.edu writes: > > << Forget it. Throw it out! The West epoxy shrinks terribly, which makes > it almost useless. >> > Could you expand on this? I've been using the West for 2 months now in the > finishing process with great results. What is shrinking? > Steve > It must be hot here, as I blew steam Steve. I envy anyone who has the patience to work with the West. How much airplane have you finished in those 2 months ? As I see it, to use the West/micro, you need to spread a thick layer over the entire area, let it cure (this is when it shrinks), then sand the surface down to contour. If you miss the final desired shape the first time, you pretty much start over with another complete thick layer etc. I tried filling only the low spots, and made a mess, in part due to the shrink, and also because of inconsistant hardness of my application and/or mixing as well as the epoxy film for adhesion. In my case, most of the micro ended up on the floor, and I went over each surface at least three times just to get it tolerable. I was delighted to find the SuperFill, which does not require a bond film coat of epoxy, does not shrink at all, so you need not over-fill any low spots, and is consistant. I usually only fill a rough surface once, then sand to contour, then prime with Smooth prime, then spot putty with Superfill and reprime- then paint it. I am working more toward functional than "show winner". Just finished the bottom of my strakes and fuselage in two weeks from flip over to spray paint. All the really beautiful birds have been done with West, so I know that it can be done, but the skill and/or effort are beyond me. George Graham RX-7 Powered EZ, N4449E ca266@freenet.buffalo.edu Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:05:11 -0800 From: hrogers@slac.stanford.edu (Howard Rogers) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Heat and WestSystems vs Super Fill >On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Rego Burger wrote: > Good ideas cut. >> "All the above demonstrates the measures we take to build aeroplanes." > >I recently ran out of Polyfibers SuperFill, and went back to the West/ >micro mix while waiting for a shipment. > >Forget it. Throw it out! The West epoxy shrinks terribly, which makes >it almost useless. > >The SuperFill is lighter, probably cheaper, and does not >shrink ! > >Your fill jobs take one tenth the time. >Get the three gallon kit (I did this time). > >Yes, I should get commision! > >George Graham >RX-7 Powered EZ, N4449E >ca266@freenet.buffalo.edu George, I would sure like to know more about this product. Is it epoxy-based? How do you know for sure it will NEVER shrink? How could you tell the West systems DID shrink? I have used it a little, and I have never detected any shrinkage, even after many years (my project has seen the world's record number of inturruptions). I'm not trying to be smart, here. I just know absolutely nothing about this product, and I'd like to learn more. --Howard Rogers, 650-926-4052 hrogers@slac.stanford.edu From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:31:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Heat and WestSystems vs Super Fill Graham writes Apparently portland cement and epoxy have a common trait, shrinkage. The shrinkage when either is combined with a filler is related to the ratio filler/binder. If the mixture is 100% filler, there is no shrinkage (with concrete, solid packed stone paricles). With 100% binder there is a maximum shrinkage. The minimum shrinkage, maximizing strength, will occur (based on filler strength) when each filler particle is coated with a minimum thickness of binder, and the voids filled. In the case of designing a concrete mix, the idea is to start with the biggest stones, fill the voids with smaller (usually sand that has a special mix of sizes), and then the remaining spaces filled with portland cement and water. More cement, strength goes up, but so does shrinkage, and resulting cracks. For most useages highest strength is not best. The drier you can get the micro, the less shrinkage. I haven't noticed shringage of thick micro areas on my COSY, ant thats West. The carbon fiber bid weave is slightly visible on the top cowling where exposed to high temp. Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:26:55 +0200 From: Rego Burger Subject: COZY: WestSystems/shrinkage I am shocked to hear of west system shrinking! Epoxies suppliers are (in general ) proud of their NON SHRINKING qualities. Shrinkage is associated with Polyester systems most of the time, up to 7%. Does anyone have an idea of what percentage shrinkage takes place with the West system? Rego Burger, web site: http://home.intekom.com/glen/rnb.htm (home e-mail) mailto:rnb@intekom.co.za RSA From: "Hunter GA (Gary) at MSXSCC" Subject: RE: COZY: WestSystems/shrinkage Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:35:36 -0500 All epoxies (neat - no fillers) shrink and they shrink approximately 3-6% by VOLUME depending on the curing agent. However, there is one primary difference between epoxies and polyesters. Epoxies begin to shrink immediately upon mixing of the hardner with the resin AND about 1/2 of the total volumentric shrinkage occurs PRIOR to gelation. So, the NET effective shrinkage is only 1.5-3% by VOLUME. In contrast, a polyester doesn't begin to shrink until after it gels or solidifies. Thus the total volumetric shrinkage of a typical polyester is fully realized and can be as high as 12% by volume. Now, what is going on in the situation we have been talking about in this thread is as follows: They only way to reduce the shrinkage of an epoxy or polyester is to fill it. Fill it with solids like, silica sand, calcium carbonate, or in this case we are talking about Microballoons or Hollow Glass Spheres. You can reduce that shrinkage proportionally with increasing levels of filler. For all practicality, we can only reduce the shrinkage to about 1/3 of what it normally shrinks. In the case of mixing your own micro, wether it be with West Systems or EZpoxy you are only capabable of putting in so much micro before it becomes too thick to apply. The viscosity of the resin/ curing agent mixture is the primary factor in how much filler you can put in it. Our laminating formulations are not optimized for making micro - just for laminating. The people that make Superfil have the option to alter their resin system so it is lower in viscosity and thus they are capable of putting in more fillers. Not only that, since they are specifically formulating a compound to have minimum shrinkage, they can afford to optimize the filler partical size distribution and make-up to obtain maximum packing density and get even more fillers in the system and reduce the shrinkage even further. THEREFORE... it does not surprise me that Superfil shrinks less than anything we can produce on our own. My lab work at Shell Chemical shows that you need approximately 92% by volume filler to reduce the shrinkage of an optimized epoxy resin system to less than 0.1% by volume. That is a lot of filler... Just my two cents worth.... Gary Hunter EAA Technical Counselor Vari-Eze - N235GH gahunter@shellus.com > ---------- > From: Rego Burger[SMTP:burgerr@telkom.co.za] > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 1998 1:26 AM > To: cozy_builders@canard.com > Subject: COZY: WestSystems/shrinkage > > I am shocked to hear of west system shrinking! Epoxies suppliers are (in > general ) proud of their NON SHRINKING qualities. Shrinkage is > associated with Polyester systems most of the time, up to 7%. Does > anyone have an idea of what percentage shrinkage takes place with the > West system? > > Rego Burger, web site: http://home.intekom.com/glen/rnb.htm > (home e-mail) mailto:rnb@intekom.co.za > RSA > From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:18:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Heat and WestSystems vs Super Fill Grahram writes For what its worth, I only tried to put enough to fill the low spots, sand and fill again, maybe 6 or 8 times to get the correct contour. Have had many complements on finish. For the newcomers, and those that wait to the last minute for advice: check the archives for my several pages on finishing. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:27:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: COZY: DATA hrogers I think what he is saying: We all must be cautious and careful with choice of words, when writing. All comments are welcome, but if some testing or measurement of observations can be included, the comment will be more useful. Many times a simple test will suffice. If help is needed in devising a meaningful test, ask. There are many subscibers who have considerable testing experience with similar materials, and methods can be tranfered. Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:40:33 -0400 From: John Millington Subject: COZY: Aircraft Colors? I have just tonight, sent for my plans but have been reading this Mailing list for quite a while, on the WEB. I am looking forward to becoming a part of the "community" that I have been reading so much of lately. I haven't read anything in these mailing lists about this. Forgive me if this subject was already covered. I notice that all of the pictures that I see of Cozys or any canards are usually colored white or some very light colors. Is there any reason that I couldn't paint my Cozy MKIV with a bold and colorful paint scheme? Like the black and green design that I have been thinking about? I hope to be asking a lot of good questions over the next few years. J. Austin Millington From: SMilesCozy@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:02:48 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Aircraft Colors? In a message dated 98-07-29 23:46:26 EDT, you write: > Is there any reason that I couldn't paint my Cozy > MKIV with a bold and colorful paint scheme? Like the black and green > design that I have been thinking about? > I hope to be asking a lot of good questions over the next few years. > > J. Austin Millington Austin, Congratulations on deciding to build the Cozy. To paraphrase Henry Ford, you can paint it any color you like . . . as long as you like white. Seriously, the reason is that dark colors will get too hot in the sun and may allow the structure of the aircraft to soften and change shape . . . not a good thing. It's amazing how hot dark colors can get. So my advice is . . . paint it white, off-white, antique white, or almost white, and add a splash of trim color. HTH, Steve Miles Cozy MkIV 272 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:12:15 -0400 From: bil kleb Subject: Re: COZY: Aircraft Colors? John Millington wrote: > > I haven't read anything in these mailing lists about this. it is in the plans: chapter 25 it is also in the cozy builders mailing list archives, http://cozy.canard.com/mail_list/topics96/chap_25.txt or via email, mailto:majordomo@canard.com with the following as the body of the message, get cozy_builders topics96/chap_25.txt end w hicks is working on the faq (frequently asked/answered questions) for chapter 4, which you'll surely also want to read. welcome to information overload... :) -- bil From: Greg and Jill Hilliard Subject: COZY: paint colors Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:42:23 -0500 >From a thread a few months ago, we all know that the Japanese built a canard pusher during WW2 called the Shinden which looked amazingly similar what Burt came up with 30 years later. This year at Oshkosh, it would appear that the folks at Stoddard-Hamilton were also scooped by the Japanese. Out on the flightline is a Glassair with what must be a quite authentic WW2 era dark green paint job with a big red meatball on either side. Since it's wings weren't drooping yet, I'll have to assume this is a new airplane. Maybe the guy who built it is going for wing anhedral the cheap and easy way. I'll agree with Burt, Nat and just about everyone else that dark colors get very hot in the sunlight. Since heat can be a bad thing for glass aircraft, the best solution is to paint at least the structural parts white or always hangar it and bring an awning with you to Oshkosh. Greg Hilliard Cozy Mk4 #456 Chapter 6 gjhilliard@idcnet.com From: K_N_Sargent@webtv.net (Ken Sargent) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:54:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: paint colors I believe they use vinyl ester resin with a much higher heat deflection temperature than epoxy. Ken Sargent Cozy #555 k_n_sargent@webtv.net From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:36:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Zolatone On 10/26/98 12:21:56 you wrote: > >In a response from Nat regarding upholstery, he mentioned painting the >inside of his cockpit with "zolatone". Is that a "speckled" look paint ? >Does it hide the weave of the glass ? Where can you buy it ? > >I did not peel-ply the large areas of my fuse inside layups. > >Thanks. > > Its a Sherwin Williams paint product. Check your nearest house type (not automotive) paint SW distributor. Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:44:28 -0600 From: Vance Atkinson Subject: Re: COZY: Zolatone Our Cozy is 12 years old and I have repainted the inside first with Zoelatone (lasted 6 years) then with SW "multi-speck". The Zoelatone last much better and doesn't require a clear coat (which tends to yellow) If I were doing it again, I'd go with the Zoelatone. You must so some kind of lite filling or sanding on the inside lay-ups or the weave will show right through (both paints) along with all the edges. I recommend peel ply all inside edges that you can see and a light coat of fill on the weave. Vance Atkinson N43CZ, COZY 1200 hrs cdenk@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > On 10/26/98 12:21:56 you wrote: > > > >In a response from Nat regarding upholstery, he mentioned painting the > >inside of his cockpit with "zolatone". Is that a "speckled" look paint ? > >Does it hide the weave of the glass ? Where can you buy it ? > > > >I did not peel-ply the large areas of my fuse inside layups. > > > >Thanks. > > > > > > Its a Sherwin Williams paint product. Check your nearest house type (not automotive) paint SW > distributor. From: SWrightFLY@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:52:20 EST Subject: Re: COZY: Zolatone In a message dated 10/28/98 8:18:19 AM Central Standard Time, vaatk@flash.net writes: << The Zoelatone last much better and doesn't require a clear coat (which tends to yellow) If I were doing it again, I'd go with the Zoelatone. >> I fully agree with this and the Zolatone is about the same price at $25.00 a quart at a local automotive paint store. The SW is about $8.00 a can and takes about 5 or 6 cans to do the cockpit. I used 1 and 1/2 quarts for the cockpit. Steve Wright Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:18:50 -0600 Subject: Re: COZY: Paint Stripping From: mikefly@juno.com (Michael B Bowden) Do not use chemical strippers on composite structure!!! Softens paint AND resin. The only way is to scrape or sand. MBB On Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:44:41 -0800 "Rick Roberts" writes: >Hi Everybody, > >While on the subject of paint stripping, someone asked how to strip a >Long >ez or something. I'm in the process of stripping my Cessna 150 and it >is >horrible! What is the most incredible stripper in the world, I'll go >get it! >The stuff I'm using works okay but it leaves this gooey sludge which >needs >scraping, alcohol wipe, acetone wipe... to get it all off. There has >to be >a better way. Now I know why the paint shop I went to wouldn't tell >me >their secret! > >Have a good week and thanks in advance. > >Rick Roberts > > From: "Ernesto Sanchez" Subject: Re: COZY: Paint Stripping Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:08:16 -0800 Once I heard of using crushed walnut shells in a sand blaster for paint removal on fiberglass surfaces. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:26:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [canard-aviators] Re: COZY: Paint Stripping James K. Glindemann wrote Sorry misundersood, the difficulty of stripping of a Cessna crept into the thinking, I was trying to convey that I had used a steam cleaner for removal successfully. I also said tread lightly with composites, from the several replys, I have to define lightly as DON'T TOUCH composites with strippers. I think there might be a slight chance of finding a chemical stripper available that would not touch the epoxy (might work on some and not others), but yet get the paint off, but with the large variety of paints (water base, lacquer, urethane, epoxy, water based, etc) who knows what works on one won't work on others. Looking at 2 strippers I have, one said it will remove paint, stain; the other included epoxy and urethane; I have seen others that are for Latex. I have stripped furniture, where one works alot better than another. In closing, I do not recommend stripping composites. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:42:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Paint Stripping On 11/16/98 21:58:17 you wrote: > >In a message dated 11/15/98 7:50:12 PM Central Standard Time, >kingkozy@pacbell.net writes: > ><< What is the most incredible stripper in the world, I'll go get it! >> > >I saw a demo of the Buegler Stripping tool at Oshkosh several times over the >past years. I'm certainly no expert having never done any pinstriping but it >sure seemed to produce a nice clean line. I looked them up on the web at >WWW.BEUGLER.COM. > >Dick Finn >Cozy Mark IV #46 > > Yes, but the stripe is paint on top paint, not paint butted to paint. At some locations like near the leading edge of a propeller (8 knot decrease in speed), and probably canard leading edge performance will suffer. From: "neal newman" Subject: Fw: [canard-aviators] Re: COZY: Paint Stripping Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:03:22 -0500 Hello All.. I rarely post here too Busy working at the job and on the plane.. But lately.. the Posting has been about PAINT Stripping.. and Everyone Tossing in their Ideas Of what to do or not to do stripping a Composite. My question to everyone who responded to the original Post... did you read the ORIGINAL POST.... I dont think so.. thats whats funny here it is.... >On Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:44:41 -0800 "Rick Roberts" >writes: >Hi Everybody, > >While on the subject of paint stripping, someone asked how to strip a >Long >ez or something. I'm in the process of stripping my Cessna 150 and it >is >horrible! What is the most incredible stripper in the world, I'll go >get it! Rick is stripping a Cessna 150 NOT a Composite..... and wanted to know what stripper to use on the CESSNA.... how this all got Bent to DONT chemical strip a Composite is beyond me.... I get between 40 and 120 emails a day. a good percentage is on the Topic of paint stripping... I,m probably wrong about sending this... But lets get the facts CLOSE to correct about stripping a CESSNA.. and NO more on dont chemical strip a composite... that goes without saying.... The Best way to strip a composite is Elboe grease and sandpaper.....IMO... lets move onto the next item.... anyone else making the metal parts other than Brock? second I found an error in the Cozy plans... chapter 8 headrests... step3 after inserting the 1.25X1.25 wood blocks... Nat says to cut a few pieces of bid to make a 4 ply layup over these blocks.. yet in the drawing figure6 it show 12plys which is it? also it shows the left side headrest mounted on the shoulder support. yet it says it should be mounted on the canopy.. again which is it... Neal Newman Cozy 3place #226 CozyMKIV #659 From: "Will Chorley" Subject: COZY: Painting a Cozy Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:50:02 -0600 So - what's the BEST way to paint the bottom of a Cozy? I expect I'll get a ton of answers to this one, but right now, I have the fuz upside down and have finished all the stuff that needs to be done underneath - landing gear, fairings, etc. It seems to me that whilst in this position I might as well finish it at least through the last primer coat, maybe even finish coat and then buff the overlap between the sides and the bottom when I come to paint the sides (3-6 months away?). This way, maybe I won't have to turn it over again. From ???@??? Sun Dec 13 14:50:11 1998 Return-Path: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Received: from twc2.betaweb.com (majordomo@betaweb.com [206.43.209.18]) by acestes-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n20340/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id PAA27821 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA11145 for cozy_builders-list; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:07:42 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: twc2.betaweb.com: majordomo set sender to owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com using -f Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by twc2.betaweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11139 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:07:37 -0500 From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA18254; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:07:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:07:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from ely-oh2-12.ix.netcom.com(205.186.80.76) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018196; Sat Dec 12 14:07:24 1998 To: anneandwill@worldnet.att.net To: cozy_builders@canard.com Message-Id: <1998121215219741@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: COZY: Painting a Cozy X-Mailer: Netcomplete v4.0, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-cozy_builders@betaweb.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: cdenk@ix.netcom.com X-UIDL: 1f6f4c7169b9f75c4a43b32566a3a26d See the archives for my finishing notes. I put a paint trim stripe mid height of the fuselage side. Painted the bottom and part of sides upside down. If you are using a paint like Deltron (or its cuttent replacement) that easily touches up, it should not be a problem to blend and should not be noticeable where there is not a paint color change, could even be full length. From: "Mara Liston" Subject: Re: COZY: Painting a Cozy Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:12:38 PST Will Chorley wrote: >So - what's the BEST way to paint the bottom of a Cozy >It seems to me that whilst in this >position I might as well finish it at least through the last primer >coat, maybe even finish coat and then buff the overlap between the sides >and the bottom when I come to paint the sides (3-6 months away?). >This way, maybe I won't have to turn it over again. > >Any thoughts? That is exactly what we did a couple days ago. Painting (PPG Deltron)was a bit harder that I anticipated but the finish coat is on the bottom now and I am really glad we don't have to flip it again. I think it was great practice to be able to paint and buff out the bottom before starting on the topsides. Now I know just how far I need to go to get the look I want on the top. The bottom isn't perfect but now I know how to make the parts everyone will see like a mirror. Mara Liston N559CZ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: "Mara Liston" Subject: Re: COZY: Painting a Cozy Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 12:18:48 PST Oops, did I say Deltron? I meant Concept. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com