Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 11:32:40 -0500 From: kevin@ias.com (Kevin R. Walsh) Subject: COZY: Marc Z. Project Visit Marc was kind enough to let me take a look at his project this past weekend (Thanks Marc! :-) ) and, though the pictures on the 'Net help a lot, it is great to actually visit a project in process. I am not currently building, but I would like to at least get a set of plans soon. A few things struck me that I thought a few "not yet builders" like myself would like to hear: 1) The plans are VERY similar to a set of Long-EZ plans that I have a copy of. In some cases I dare say they are Xerox copies. 2) I was HIGHLY surprised to see the amount of work that Marc has gotten done in such a small space. He is building in his basement in a space that I would approximate to be the size of a one car garage. He has the tub mostly complete, the canard done through the elevator mounted, and the wings mostly complete, with the winglets now attached. While I was visiting he was working on the rudders. While Marc still has a way to go, he has made remarkable progress in a small space. So , I guess the lesson to be learned is that the plans are pretty well laid out, approximating the Long plans, and the space required to get a good jump on the construction is much less than you would think, as long as you are organized and store the things you are not working on. Well, thanks again to Marc for letting me take a look. Kevin R. Walsh Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:28:51 -0500 From: Jim Hocut Subject: Re: COZY: Prebuilder with questions youbristow@juno.com (Burke L Bristow) wrote: > >1. I have a family of four so I looking for something that we all could >use for a decent cross country aircraft...... The only baggage space is in the left and right strake, about enough for an overnight bag on each side, I believe. I'll be in the same predicament, I've reached the conclusion that I'll just have to teach my wife to pack light, and if that's not enough we'll FedEx stuff ahead to our destination. I've seen the baggage pods on a Long EZ, maybe it's just me but they don't look like they'd hold all that much. > >2. I know that Spruce offers two kits..... Most everybody I know just buys materials as they go, less $$$ tied up that way. I try to stay about a chapter ahead of myself. I don't believe you get any kind of discount for buying the "kits" either. >3. ...deep stall... It's been pretty well established that the only way to get into a deep stall is to have the C.G. too far aft. Nat issued a design change shortening the canard, which will have the net effect of moving the C.G. envelope rearward. Some of the heavier builders seem to be electing to keep the canard long, the reason being that they need a more forward C.G. envelope (i.e. more weight in the front seat). Jim Hocut jhocut@mindspring.com Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:37:05 -0500 (EST) From: DFinn7971@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Prebuilder with questions In a message dated 97-01-09 22:57:42 EST, bristow@juno.com (Burke L Bristow) writes: << Mr. Puffer mentioned to me on the phone that some have designed baggage pods. Has anyone in this forum done this or purchased some that they could tell me more about? I know that Spruce offers two kits for the raw materials for building the plane. .... are there other suppliers who can sell the same quality material at a lower price I have done some reading about the deep stall .... What has been done to help prevent this from occuring in the Cozy? >> Burke, I have never seen the baggage pods on a Cozy but I'm sure they are out there. I have seen them on Long-eze's and believe that the owners are pleased with them. They look a bit like bombs suspended under the wings. I've bought parts from Wicks and Aircraft Spruce as well as several other suppliers. Generally speaking I've found that Sruce is the cheapest. In a recent correspondance with them they state that they will beat any published price and that they will waive the shipping charges on orders over $500. This last item was news to me but they have formally stated it to me in an e-mail. I do buy some things at local suppliers. I live in Chicago and have access to several sources for AN hardware, aluminum, steel, etc. Wicks and Aircraft Spruce are the easiest place to buy from however. I think Jeff Russell at Aerocad can supply some components at a savings. I think very highly of Jeff, his knowledge of the plane, his willingness to share his knowledge and his approach to doing business. I could even think more highly of him if he'd send me the handle for the retractable foot step. All kidding aside, he is a good guy and easy to do business with. If you decide to build purchase all Brock supplied hardware immediately before he raises the price again. You could check the archives for a good discussion of the deep stall. Nat has done significant testing and has stated that the canard must be shortened. He has also stated that the lower winglets and vortex generators (the gizmos on the leading edge of the wing (did I get the name right?) are manditory. Dick Finn Cozy Mark IV #46 DFINN7971@AOL.COM Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:48:29 -0500 (EST) From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Prebuilder with questions In a message dated 97-01-09 22:57:43 EST, you write: << 2. I know that Spruce offers two kits for the raw materials for building the plane. Is this the best and most economical way to go or are there other suppliers who can sell the same quality material at a lower price if a person does some shopping around? >> I bought all of my material from Spruce at one shot, got 10% discount. There are a LARGE number of errors on their mat'l list. Additionally, each order they receive is a creative process. They had no method to change or accurately repeat their bill of materials. They had to translate each item and qty to quote, mail to me, modify, then once again translate to their order system. Very crude and error prone. It's only been two years, but I would hope by now they have computerized bill of material. I ended up with too many pieces of marine plywood (1 or 2 only needed), too many feet of alum angle, and a few misc stuff missing or extra. Not too bad. But that was after a great deal of comparing material lists, etc, etc. If I did it again, I would again not order any item over x dollars. There are inexpensive alternatives for some of the items. Spruce was the best price I could find in general. I purchased whole kit at one time (except for epoxy and high $) because I knew I would complete project. For most people that would be a mistake ( plans built kits have completion rate around 20% as I recall). For what it's worth, the entire lot of materials takes up VERY little space. It's the completed parts that start comsuming space. Good luck. Check out the COZY archives. Would be nice if someone documented their true bill of materials and posted it here. -al Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:52:18 PST Subject: COZY: Prebuilder with questions From: bristow@juno.com (Burke L Bristow) Hello all, I am a prebuilder anxiously awaiting my info pak for the Mark IV. I am very impressed with what I know of the plane so far but I do have a few questions/concerns I was hoping someone might be able to help me with. 1. I have a family of four so I looking for something that we all could use for a decent cross country aircraft. All of my family is on the light side so I am not as concerned about exceeding gross weight as I am running out of space to put things. Does anybody have some thoughts on this. Mr. Puffer mentioned to me on the phone that some have designed baggage pods. Has anyone in this forum done this or purchased some that they could tell me more about? 2. I know that Spruce offers two kits for the raw materials for building the plane. Is this the best and most economical way to go or are there other suppliers who can sell the same quality material at a lower price if a person does some shopping around? 3. I have done some reading about the deep stall and I know that there was some discussion about it in todays mailing. What has been done to help prevent this from occuring in the Cozy? It appeared as if there had been some lengthy discussion about this in some correspondence prior to me getting on the list. If anyone would like to send me a copy of it, I would appreciate it. Well, I gues that is all for now. Thank all of you for your time and don't be surprised if you hear much more from me in the future. Burke & Kim Bristow bristow@juno.com Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:48:50 -0400 (EDT) From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Earth to anyone, earth to anyone. -Reply In a message dated 97-04-09 13:50:19 EDT, you write: << Another thought I have on this subject is the guys who are flying already could with great courage share some of the baddies, ie. the odd wheel up etc. Pilot errors and more, NOT to be criticised by us but to learn from your experiences, like Marc's Taxi error etc. ( sorry Marc. Quickie! ) >> Very difficult to get completed pilots involved. Not much in it for them except criticism. This is a pretty good group, but I've seen others where a genuine expert gets blasted and then slowly quits contributing. Unfortunate. << Even building booboo's they can help the tail enders from making the same mistake. >> Ok, Ok, I confess. I've made a few errors during construction. Actually, the plans are so good, the only areas I've had problems are with the ammended instructions Nat publishes. The ammendments are usually ambiguous and written from the perspective of someone who has already built the component. As I recall, I made F22 wrong due to ambiguity. Piece of cake to remake. Almost got trapped in canard template mod (increased incidence). Didn't realize the importance of the flat sides of template (non-cutting surfaces). Don't recall any other errors, but I think I made a couple others. Shows just how excellent the plans are. -al 53% complete, building turtlback (last major structure). by SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V5.1-8 #16063) with SMTP id <01IHI1MTP3KW00678E@SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:04:43 PST Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 13:04:43 -0800 From: hrogers@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Howard Rogers) Subject: Re: COZY: Earth to anyone, earth to anyone. -Reply ><< Another thought I have on this subject is the guys who are > flying already could with great courage share some of the baddies, ie. > the odd wheel up etc. Pilot errors and more, NOT to be criticised by us > but to learn from your experiences, like Marc's Taxi error etc. ( sorry > Marc. Quickie! ) OK, OK. Don't beat me! I'll fess up to a building error. When it was time to cut out the holes in the fuselage sides, in preparation for building the strakes/tanks, I made a BIG mistake. After buzzing away with my handy dandy sabre saw, I stood back to admire the work, and almost passed out! I had apparently made a GROSS error reading my tape measure (how does that old saw go? Measure twice, cut once?) Anyway, one of the holes was longer than the other by several *INCHES*! After I recovered my wits, I consulted the plans, made some more measurements, and figured out how I had screwed up. Fortunately, this wasn't an aluminum airplane, so I just microed the piece back in, and glassed it in accordance with the standard repair practices. I then got a second chance to measure and cut it. Thank goodness for composite structures! Very embarrasssing, but also very educational. You can fix just about anything. Howard Rogers Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:54:07 +0200 From: Rego Burger Subject: COZY: Builder Tips-Cost Saving Thanks to all for getting the ball rolling on the "builder errors" these have naturally appeared under the "earth story", subject line it would be nice to keep it under something like this one :-) for the future, only a suggestion. These tips will be a great encouragement to new builders. my 2c worth, Congratulations to all "new comers" babies too :-) For blokes like Darren who have just got your plans, some overhead savings: At this late stage in my project I discovered a few cost saving ideas. I get used hacksaw blades from a friend. FREE! I use them for: 1. mixing resin 2. scraping prep for layups on cured surfaces. 3. cutting through areas. 4. applying flox etc.etc. EVER worried about wax in those supposed to be wax free cups? Well I now use condense milk tin or plastic containers my wife throws away. Even 2litre coke bottles come in useful, I cut the base off for mixing resin and use the tops for funnels :-) There is a reason here of coarse in RSA $1-00 = R 4.4 ! Every bit helps. Hope this helps someone, It also gets the family involved in a small way. When we go for an ice cream at the beach my son exclaimed one day, " Dad, you can use those cups for mixing resin. " You guessed it he now want's to go to the beach every Saturday for an ice cream, also going through the rubbish bin grabbing all the cups others throw away, he's tried selling them to me :-) Cheers Rego Burger Port Elizabeth RSA ( Rep. South Africa ) cozy Mk 4 # 139 Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:20:03 -0400 (EDT) From: DFinn7971@aol.com Subject: COZY: Getting Started I've sat in on several of Jeff's demonstrations at Oshkosh and found them to be really super. My first layup, the seat back, turned out to be a disaster. The balance I built didn't work properly and after a few years (when I finally got around to throwing it out) the original seat back was still tacky. I contacted another builder who, after I purchased the pump, came over and helped me do the new seat back. From then on I was on my own. The bottom line is that it really helps to work with someone with some experience. Either through one of Jeff Russell's work shops or just a buddy. Dick Finn Cozy Mark IV #46 DFINN7971@AOL.COM Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:09:31 -0700 From: rfisher@spacetech.com Subject: Re: COZY: Yippeeeee!! I'm number 608! On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Aerocannon@aol.com wrote: >#604 here!.... >I am unsure of the epoxy issue myself? >What would any of you builders recommend for Kansas (dry-mostly) summers?...I > am ready, and willing .....anxious to get started... Also, can people buy >kits by chapter #'s instead of the whole kit?? > >Mitch Cannon >#604 Mitch, I think for low humidity, most any epoxy would work. One thing that attracted me to Aeropoxy was no MDA. We're exposed to enough chemicals in our daily lives, we don't need to be around any known bad-boys. Yes, you absolutely can purchase by the chapter number. Order a catalog from Wicks (their ads are in every plane mag). They have everything broken down both by chapter and by materials group (foams, woods, metals, etc.) They seem to be a little cheaper than AS&S and I've heard many horror stories about AS&S. You are also closer to Wicks than to either AS&S so shipping would be less (although AS&S has recently been advertising free shipping for orders over $500). I don't know, the free shipping may more than offset the higher prices, depending on what you are ordering. Let me know if you need phone # or address for Wicks. See ya, Russ Fisher Still waiting for my first materials order to arrive. Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 07:49:16 EST From: MISTER@neesnet.com Subject: Re[2]: COZY: Yippeeeee!! I'm number 608! Aerocannon@aol.com wrote: "#604 here!.... I am unsure of the epoxy issue myself? What would any of you builders recommend for Kansas (dry-mostly) summers?...I am ready, and willing .....anxious to get started... Also, can people buy kits by chapter #'s instead of the whole kit?? > Mitch Cannon" Mitch, I still like and recommend the 'original' RAE System epoxy (Wicks 2177/2426G) I used it for my entire project (With the exception of filling and finishing)and thought it worked great. I didn't have any allergic reactions and had no worries about peel strength, etc. I feel it is regularly overlooked as an option by many builders nowadays. I also wholeheartedly recommend Wicks. They always seemed to be able to provide me with quick, courteous service and rarely seemed to have stuff on backorder. Good luck on your project. Bob Misterka N342RM Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:27:25 -0700 From: C van Hoof Organization: Architect Subject: COZY: Ordering parts rfisher@spacetech.com wrote: > Also, can people buy kits by chapter #'s instead of the whole kit?? > >Mitch Cannon > >#604 > > Yes, you absolutely can purchase by the chapter number. Order a catalog > everything broken > down both by chapter and by materials group (foams, woods, metals, etc.) > Russ Fisher Hi All Part Orderers, Just my 02c, because I'm sure I left some money on the table somewhere. I did the same in ordering, but used the Cosy materials pages. resulting tips: Some parts are cheaper if ordered in longer lenghts(ie hinges) Same on some sheeting and angled materials. What I would do different: make a computer list, use the sort command and then order only what I need plus the extra material to get the savings. Of course nothing is impossible if you don't have to do it yourself :-) chris #219 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:55:06 -0500 From: Paul Comte Subject: Re: COZY: chapter 4,front seatback Terence J. Pierce wrote: > > Thanks everyone for the help. I did read chapter 3, but it was awhile > ago. I guess I need to read it over again. <<<>>>> > > > Thanks, > > > > Terry Pierce > > Cozy Mark IV #600 As Bill mentioned in his post to you: > this is covered in a cozy iv plans correction from newsletter >41 (see >http://www.ultranet.com/~marcz/cozy_mkIV/newsletters/mkIV_correct.html) >-- >bil Have you checked to make sure all the corrections and changes have been made in your plans? My wife, bless her heart, found several I missed in ours. A double check now may save much agony later :-0 pcomte@tcccom.net From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: More questions from a prebuilder. (fwd) Date: Tue, 20 May 97 9:51:08 EDT Burke Bristow writes; >2. Is there any room for cargo behind or below the back seat? (In front >of the firewall) Behind, maybe a wallet :-). Below, yes, some small bags (and I do mean _small_ - a pocketbook or fannysack) or misc. stuff. Same under the front seats, but there's a bit more room there. Don't expect to get at it in flight unless you're a contortionist. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:18:50 PST Subject: COZY: More questions from a prebuilder. From: bristow@juno.com (Burke L Bristow) Thanks to everyone for the responses to my last question. I have some more questions for anyone who feels compelled to respond. The first one is somewhat specific to possibly just a few people within the group. The second one is for anyone that knows. 1. I am currently on active duty. My question would be to anyone who would know. If I am reassigned prior to finishing my project, will the DoD move my parts and just count the weight against my allowable household baggage or will I be on my own? I realize the subject of crating the parts satisfactorily would be almost as big of a project as the building itself. Any input would be appreciated. 2. Is there any room for cargo behind or below the back seat? (In front of the firewall) Thanks in advance for your responses. If you have input for question #1 and prefer not to bore the rest of the group, feel free to send to me directly. Still Dreaming Burke & Kim Bristow bristow@juno.com Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:07:02 +0200 (GMT) Posted-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:07:02 +0200 (GMT) From: pine@global.co.za (pine) Subject: COZY: Big pilot Hi to all My mind is made on building a "Cozy MK4" I have spend +-13 months to decide what to build, and was member of this group since 24/3/97 I recently saw a picture of a 6'4" pilot crammed into a Cozy, they had to remove the seat cushion, and suddenly I worried if I would fit since I'm 6 ft 4" and weight 187 lb ?? I would not want to sit on the glass for a 4 hour trip. Is it possible to glass the seat lower or can the canopy be raised without aerodynamic nightmares. There is a Cozy III that was widened by 2" could this be done safely ?? The King Kosy is not for me. To much a "mod" for me. Hopping that the three car "cozy factory" an extension to my house will by finished in Des Getting lots of help from Chris v Hoof Cozy #219 and architect, many thanks. X-mas will see a Cozy plan under the tree, from Pine to Pine. Pine Pienaar pine@global.co.za Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:41:48 -0400 From: bil kleb Organization: NASA Langley Research Center Subject: Re: COZY: Big pilot pine wrote: > > I recently saw a picture of a 6'4" pilot crammed into a Cozy, > they had to remove the seat cushion, and suddenly I worried > if I would fit since I'm 6 ft 4" and weight 187 lb ?? valid concern. i am 6'3". when i asked nat about this, he told me to ask vance atkinson. maybe this is an appropriate topic that vance should address in some detail in his newsletter column? > Is it possible to glass the seat lower no. the bottom of the seat is the bottom of the airplane. ;) you could, however, install the seatback 1" aft of normal^ and install the rudder pedal pivots forward an inch to make more legroom, but this doesn't help the headroom situation. > or can the canopy be > raised without aerodynamic nightmares. yes, or so i've heard. however, as you might guess, raising the canopy precipitates other changes. for example, if you don't want a "kink" at the turtleback juncture, you'll have to raise it also ... and, of course, you have to make the firewall taller for the same reason ... which means the cowls will have to be modified slightly, etc., etc. i am only on chap 9, so the only change that i've made so far is to make the upper firewall 1.5" taller. thus, i am wholly unqualified to comment further... j russell's aerocanard canopy is another avenue worth pursuing to gain relief for your shoulders and head. -- bil ^recall that the moment arm for the ever-crucial weight-and-balance calculations would also need to be so adjusted. Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:24:35 +0200 From: morten@scandisoft.no (morten scandisoft.) Organization: ScandiSoft AS Subject: Re: COZY: Big pilot bil kleb wrote: > > pine wrote: > > > > I recently saw a picture of a 6'4" pilot crammed into a Cozy, > > they had to remove the seat cushion, and suddenly I worried > > if I would fit since I'm 6 ft 4" and weight 187 lb ??...... BIG VIKINGS ALSO FLY COZY !!! I'm 189 cm and 95 kilos and fits OK in My Cozy III, LN-USA. No change to airplane whatsoever ! Brgds Morten "Viking" Brandtzaeg, Norway Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:36:35 -0400 (EDT) From: SBLANKDDS@aol.com Subject: COZY: Beginner Tips I agree with Rego. Don't buy too much. Borrow and return. Even hot wire cutting can be shared with other builders and all done at once. For example, it is much easier to make several canard cores at once, then set them aside inside the blocks they came from. The last guy will get the best core!!! Don't try to become a jack of all trades (and master of none). Do the glass work. I found a RV-6 friend to bend the aluminim for the fuel valve retainer. I broke the first one...size was 1/8" too big...The aluminum bent by the RV-6 friend was better than I could do. He called me to help with the glass around the vertical fin of the RV.... He had no clue how to work with glass.. Steve Blank Cozy Mark IV #36 Port St. Lucie, Florida finishing the speed brake..... Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:56:25 -0400 (EDT) From: DFinn7971@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Beginner Tips In a message dated 97-05-27 10:19:50 EDT, burgerr@telkom.co.za (Rego Burger) writes: << For all my curved cutting of plywood etc. I simply clamped my jigsaw up vertically in the jaws of a good bench vice - clamped with g-clamps. (ie. the vice to the work table. ) It worked fine. No wasted space. Just pack it away when finished. >> Hi Rego, I agree with you that there is no need to go broke buying machinery. I do have a bandsaw and consider it a valuable addition to my collection. Having said that, I still feel that most work can be done with standard hand tools and a little patience. The expense of buying a bunch of tools should not previent someone from building a Cozy. I've found that a jig saw (what I refer to as a Saber Saw) blade tends to bend and cut thicker materials at a bevel. I would suggest that if you are cutting thick pieces you use a hand saw where there is tension on the blade -- such as a coping saw, or a saw that has a more rigid blade -- such as a back saw or one of the Japanese saws. Your suggestion of using someone elses shop is also excellant. If someone owns the tools they probably can also furnish some expertise. To extend the idea, I have a friend who takes advantage of Senior Citizen rates at a local community college to take shop courses. The instructors know him and just let him use the facilities of the school shop. Dic Finn Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:20:27 -0400 (EDT) From: DFinn7971@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Big pilot In a message dated 97-05-27 08:47:34 EDT, kleb@ab00.larc.nasa.gov (bil kleb) writes: << Install the rudder pedal pivots forward an inch to make more legroom, but this doesn't help the headroom situation. >> I moved my rudder pedal forward one inch after checking with Nat. He told me that he had moved it back one inch from the original Cozy Three Seater as he is somewhat small. There is adequate clearance for the retraction mechanism to move it forward an inch. I added two inchs to the canopy height all around when building the turtleback. I think you might find some good discussions of the process in the archives. 6'3" 235 lb Big Dick Finn Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:45:18 -0400 (EDT) From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Big pilot In a message dated 97-05-27 08:47:33 EDT, you write: << yes, or so i've heard. however, as you might guess, raising the canopy precipitates other changes. for example, if you don't want a "kink" at the turtleback juncture, you'll have to raise it also ... and, of course, you have to make the firewall taller for the same reason ... which means the cowls will have to be modified slightly, etc., etc. i am only on chap 9, so the only change that i've made so far is to make the upper firewall 1.5" taller. thus, i am wholly unqualified to comment further... >> Probably not necessary to change firewall height (unless you are concerned for rear pass head clearance). Tall pilot can be accommodated by increasing height of ribs you make during turtleback fixture construction (book 2). Just keep ribs near firewall the same size, but add your 1/2" or more to front lattice ribs. THis eliminates need for cowl mods. -al Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:44:12 +0200 (GMT) Posted-Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:44:12 +0200 (GMT) From: pine@global.co.za (pine) Subject: COZY: Landing Distance Will you GO ??? I was looking at the various landing and takeoff distances claimed by the various models and makers of kits and plans. I must say I am startled by the specmanship, you would think these people are serious aviators and would quote real numbers ??? I do like the graphs supplied for the Cozy, but would like to run a short scenario. Cozy 1050lb + me,wife,2 x friends,fuel for 400miles = 1870lb We are based on a field 2658ft long tarred with no obstruction on the extended centerline of runway 4586ft density altitude A plans build Cozy MK4 with O-360 and 3 blade prop and wheelspats Temp 68 Deg F 7 Knot cross wind Will it be save to takeoff and or landing in this configuration ??? Pine Pienaar pine@global.co.za Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:31:59 -0400 From: Phillip.Johnson@lmco.com (phillip johnson) Subject: COZY: Landing Distance Pine Pienaar Writes: > Will it be save to takeoff and or landing in this configuration ??? Not with the standard brakes. See the archives for data on Brakes. Phillip Johnson From: "Krasa-1, Paul" Subject: RE: COZY: Landing Distance Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:51:11 -0400 > >Cozy 1050lb + me,wife,2 x friends,fuel for 400miles = 1870lb >We are based on a field 2658ft long tarred with no obstruction on the >extended centerline of runway >4586ft density altitude >A plans build Cozy MK4 with O-360 and 3 blade prop and wheelspats >Temp 68 Deg F >7 Knot cross wind Landings with the heavy duty breaks should be fine as long as you put it on the end of the runway, but the runway sounds a little short for take off with a heavy load. Paul Krasa Long EZ 214LP > > > > > by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #17060) with SMTP id <01IJVIUZ0RW29FZ5MO@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:34:40 EST Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 16:33:47 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Landing Distance Organization: AEROCAD INC. pine wrote: > Will you GO ??? > Cozy 1050lb + me,wife,2 x friends,fuel for 400miles = 1870lb > We are based on a field 2658ft long tarred with no obstruction on the > extended centerline of runway > 4586ft density altitude > A plans build Cozy MK4 with O-360 and 3 blade prop and wheelspats > Temp 68 Deg F > 7 Knot cross wind > Will it be save to takeoff and or landing in this configuration ??? Pine, With my airplane with 200 HP and that weight that your talking about with the density altitude of 4500' with a cross wind and not knowing what your CG is at (how about 98.00 CG) That's forward using two people up front at 360 lbs. I would not think about trying this because I would take about 2500' to break ground. At the same day with a 2100 gross weight I would take 3000' at that CG and density altitude. Landing with the 600-6 double puck brakes I can get stopped in about 1000' at gross, but I usually use the hole runway to save brakes and landing gear melt problems. Getting out is the problem for me! Look for longer runways and live longer lives in these types of airplanes. I always flight plan over 4000' and 5000' runways even if it means I do not get to fly in a straight line. The smoky mountains are not as forgiving if your engine quits and if I have to land I know that I will be able to get safely of the runway. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com Phone/ fax (call first): 910-961-2238 AeroCad: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:43:29 +0200 From: "Guy TERREN (ALATA)" Subject: COZY: A mind joke --====_866702609_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-printable I'm just a prebuilder, but i have a question, i'm sure everyone must have= thought about: As i have very few time to build a mark IV, as everybody, ifeel some intere= ts about prebuilt parts. Has anyone reckoned for each chapter, the coast and the time spared with pr= efab parts ? Are there well-known prefab builders i can deal with ? Thanks for your answers --====_866702609_-- From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: A mind joke (fwd) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 97 11:22:32 EDT Guy Terren asks: >Has anyone reckoned for each chapter, the coast and the time spared with >prefab parts ? I have not done so explicitly, but from looking at prices and talking to people, I would venture a guess that you will pay three to six times the raw material price to have someone build a part (canard, wing, fuselage tub, etc.) for you. I don't know what the regulations are in France, but in the US, you must be able to prove to the FAA that you were the "primary" builder of the aircraft if you hope to get the repairman's certificate for that aircraft. If you buy all the major components and just do the final assembly, I think it would be a major question as to whether the FAA would agree that you were the "primary" builder. >Are there well-known prefab builders i can deal with ? In the lastest COZY newsletter (#58) Nat has listed the names of people who build components (other than those you can get from Featherlite and AeroCad). He lists: Vance Atkinson, Steve Russell, Dennis Oelmann, Robin Dubois (Dennis and Robin are on this list), Dave Petrosino, and Gene Davis. Nat states that he trusts the quality of all these builders. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #17060) with SMTP id <01IKAMTGPO6Y9F5KWR@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:09:55 EST Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:07:00 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: regulations Organization: AEROCAD INC. Marc J. Zeitlin wrote: > > Guy Terren asks: > > >Has anyone reckoned for each chapter, the cost and the time spared with > >prefab parts ? > I don't know what the regulations are in France, but in the US, you must > be able to prove to the FAA that you were the "primary" builder of the > aircraft if you hope to get the repairman's certificate for that > aircraft. If you buy all the major components and just do the final > assembly, I think it would be a major question as to whether the FAA > would agree that you were the "primary" builder. We spent a lot of time setting up as a Kit Manufacture for the Cozy and AeroCanard. The FAA came out from Atlanta and Savannah, Ga. for a three day checkout. The first thing they looked for was what we did for the builder as kits. Then they wanted to see what and how our parts we made went into the airframe. Then how the builder used the parts and how much they did on the installation for each part. The next thing is where it got really good. They made a custom list for all the parts, Canard, elevators, wings, winglets, rudders and so on with steps on how they were made. This list had two columns that would be checked by who did what. Kind of like this: home builder kit manufacture build wing spar: x cut wing cores x attach foam cores to spar x skin wings x cut winglet cores x x skin winglets x At the end of the list, if the home builder has one more x then the kit manufacture then he built 51% We went as far to see how much we could build for the home builder. All the list of parts on the web site plus the completed components qualified in the quick build and would not cross over the 51% rule. The FAA said this was what the EAA and the FAA agreed on for a learning process that had nothing to do with time. We could build 49 ribs out of 50 and the home builder build the one and would know what was in it, how to fix it and so on. > >Are there well-known prefab builders I can deal with ? > In the latest COZY newsletter (#58) Nat has listed the names of people > who build components (other than those you can get from Featherlite and > AeroCad). He lists: Vance Atkinson, Steve Russell, Dennis Oelmann, Robin > Dubois (Dennis and Robin are on this list), Dave Petrosino, and Gene > Davis. Nat states that he trusts the quality of all these builders. He also implied that I was not a qualified builder for parts. This kind of slander is what is getting him in trouble with the law. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com Phone/ fax (call first): 910-961-2238 AeroCad: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:07:59 -0700 From: C van Hoof Organization: Architect Subject: COZY: Ballast Hi All, Just a (probably) dumb question from Oafville Extension in South Africa. We are constantly talking (and some doing) about making the Cozy as light as possible, Why ? if we need ballast most of the time anyway? Sure weight trades off, but what about the ballast, its weight too :-) yes its not distributed in the same area...But throw your input into it please. Thanks Chris #219 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:21:26 -0700 From: Michael Antares Subject: COZY: Aluminum Fuel Tanks?? >BTW: Anyone else who has not already started construction or is still on Chpt 4,, do yourself a big favor and READ THE PLANS!!! I mean the WHOLE SET!! I couldn't believe the number of times that you make something and 3 chapters later you cut it out of the plane!! Just to comment--I trust you're not implying that you don't need to make the something that you will later cut out of the plane, because if you are, don't even THINK about not doing it!! However your statement about reading the plans thoroughly is the best advice there is. I always build in my mind several times before doing it in reality until I'm sure I've got it down pat. Even so, Murphy will bite you given any kind of a chance (see Marc's Oaf letter!) and probably none of us has come out unscathed--I know I'm constantly terrified of making the BIG MISTAKE that undoes dozens or hundreds of hours of work. Regards, Michael 6077 Old Redwood Highway Penngrove CA 94951 707.792.7971 Cozy#413 Finished through chap 14 except chap 13. Chaps 16 & 24 mostly finished. Now on chap 19 and 20. One wing/winglet finished, working on second. From: "mel" Subject: Re: COZY: Ballast Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 07:40:44 -0400 i dont know about any one else but we'll probably never fly without both the wife (pilot) and me (jafo) in the front seat, so we shouldent need any ballast. ergo were building as light as possible. norm cozy IV #202 ---------- > From: C van Hoof > To: cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com > Subject: COZY: Ballast > Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 12:07 PM > > Hi All, > > Just a (probably) dumb question from Oafville Extension in South Africa. > > We are constantly talking (and some doing) about making the Cozy as light > as possible, Why ? if we need ballast most of the time anyway? > > Sure weight trades off, but what about the ballast, its weight too :-) > yes its not distributed in the same area...But throw your input into it > please. > > Thanks > > Chris #219 From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: COZY: Ballast Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:40:41 MDT > i dont know about any one else but we'll probably never fly without both > the wife (pilot) and me (jafo) in the front seat, so we shouldent need any > ballast. ergo were building as light as possible. > norm cozy IV #202 I'm not exactly sure why having a ballast weight eliminates the need to build as light as possible since its only function is to keep c.g. in range. Not carrying the ballast around in the plane limits your flexibility on the road. You've essentially limited your plane to 'two persons minimum'. That lamentable situation is generally only tolerated on jets and other high performance aircraft. I can understand leaving the ballast in the hangar if you want to carry four passengers for local hops, however. There's been some discussion about using a fuel compartment in the nose to adjust c.g., but even the added complexity and safety concerns of such an approach are eclipsed by the volume required to store 50 lbs of fuel. Lee Devlin Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:31:20 -0400 From: wilhelmson@scra.org Subject: Re[2]: COZY: Ballast The solutions to the ballast problem are a matter of personal preference, but one of the best is to make up your carry along tool kit in soft canvass bags so that you can carry it behind the front seat with two up front or in the nose with one. Another solution is to carry collapsible water containers and fill them when needed. by x3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WqG00326; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:53:41 EDT Subject: COZY: Cozy: More questions From: bristow@juno.com (Burke L Bristow) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:53:41 EDT To whoever can or wants to answer: 1. What is the first major component that is built if the plans are followed in sequence? I have come to the conclusion that it is the fuselage tub from reading here but correct me if I am wrong. 2. Approximately how many building hours will it take to complete this first major component? Not completely finished of course but before moving on to the next major component. 3. Approximately how much does it cost to purchase the raw materials to reach this same stage of completion? Thanks in advance for all of your help. Still dreaming in California, Burke & Kim Bristow bristow@juno.com From: "Steve Campbell" Subject: RE: COZY: Cozy: More questions Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:35:44 Marc will probably answer this as well, but here goes,.... On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:53:41 EDT, bristow@juno.com wrote... >To whoever can or wants to answer: > >1. What is the first major component that is built if the plans are >followed in sequence? I have come to the conclusion that it is the >fuselage tub from reading here but correct me if I am wrong. That is correct. Chapters 1-3 are prebuild. Then you begin building the fuselage tub. >2. Approximately how many building hours will it take to complete this >first major component? Not completely finished of course but before >moving on to the next major component. This is a rather satisfying section since you are making large chunks of the plane, getting the hang of fiberglass construction, and the cost is relatively low. I would guess that the lower tub can be built in <300 hrs. >3. Approximately how much does it cost to purchase the raw materials to >reach this same stage of completion? > This is, relatively speaking, the cheapest part of the build. Looking over Wick's prices, I would guess that you can build Chapters 4-8 for ~ $1500. The cost increases sharply once you need to buy the landing gear (Chapters 9 and 13). Often when partially built Cozy's are for sale, they are at Chapter 9. As a rule of thumb, any chapter that has alot of Brock components is going to be an expensive chapter. Of course, the largest spend rate occurs when you need the engine and avionics ;). Steve Campbell Cozy #436, Chapters 4-12 done, Chapters 13 and 19 in progress **************************************** Stephen A. Campbell Associate Professor, ECE University of Minnesota ***************************************** by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #23426) with SMTP id <01ILM5P41OVM91F0QF@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:38:01 EST Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:31:43 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: COZY: Re: Cozy: More questions on building Organization: AEROCAD INC. bristow@juno.com wrote... > >2. Approximately how many building hours will it take to complete this > >first major component? Not completely finished of course but before > >moving on to the next major component. Steve Campbell wrote: > This is a rather satisfying section since you are making large chunks of > the plane, getting the hang of fiberglass construction, and the cost is > relatively low. I would guess that the lower tub can be built in <300 hrs. > >3. Approximately how much does it cost to purchase the raw materials to > >reach this same stage of completion? > This is, relatively speaking, the cheapest part of the build. Looking > over Wick's prices, I would guess that you can build Chapters 4-8 for ~ > $1500. If you want to purchase a molded MKIV tub less bulkheads, the cost is $2450 and you will get a paint ready finish with NO fill. Cost for the bulkheads is about $220 + 40 man hours to make and install. If you have less time then money, its a great place to save lot's of time. To get this type of finish cost us 150 MH at $40 per hour. That's $6000 bucks. We added 25 lbs of finish to the MKIV tub. That adds to empty weight of the airplane giving less useful load :-) Apples to apples to a molded tub and a plans made tub will be weight, time and money. Time to build a tub less bulkheads is about 260 hours. Time to finish add approx. 150 more. How much do you value your time. At $3 per hour the cost would be $1230 for labor. Add that to the $1280 for material and presto, you have $2510.00. I think building is fun but flying is better :-) -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. From: SBLANKDDS@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 18:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: COZY: Cozy: How much does it cost.... >>>> Burke and Kim Bristo asked how much it would cost to reach certain goals... >>>>> A few years back.....I asked Wicks for a print out of COZY Mark IV parts. They provided me with a print out by chapter, with each item listed by part number and price, with a total at the bottom of each chapter. This includes estimated cloth and resin, but does not include outside vendor parts from Brock or the items like the main gear from Featherlight or Aerocad, and all the throw away stuff like paper towels, brushes, mixing sticks, paint, etc.... You can order by copying these pages and adding or removing info, then fax or mail to wicks. For example, I order enough cloth for the next few chapters so i have less leftovers....I get resin elsewhere....so just a little editing and my order is complete and legible..... Hope this helps the new guys out there..... Hope Wicks still does this!!!!!! Steve Blank Cozy Mark IV #36 Still searching for time to build...my web page ----> Cozy Mark I V Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:51:05 -0400 From: "Calvin N. Hobbs" Organization: Truth, Justice and the Humanistic Secular Way Subject: COZY: Re: COZY IV kit "I can't believe I ate the whole thing." Dear fellow builders: You guys were all correct. Thanks for all the imput about ordering from Wicks. Jamie there is really "on it." I have ALL the materials on one form in a ready to understand form. Thanks so much. Question: I am thinking of ordering the whole list of materials at one time(minus the epoxy of course). Any down side to that? Will the foam and fiber glass not decay over the four plus years needed to build. I have or can make the room for all of it. I would think I could save a good deal on the shipping costs. Whadda ya think? Calvin VonBuilden hoffentlich From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Re: COZY IV kit "I can't believe I ate the whole thing." (fwd) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 17:05:54 EDT Steele Olmstead (not that you'd know it from his signature :-) ) writes: >Question: I am thinking of ordering the whole list of materials at one >time(minus the epoxy of course). Any down side to that? Will the foam >and fiber glass not decay over the four plus years needed to build. I >have or can make the room for all of it. I would think I could save a >good deal on the shipping costs. If you keep it all out of the sun, it'll be fine. Just a question of whether you've got the money up front. Glass and foam prices haven't changed much over the years, but as a number of people will tell you, Brock's prices tend to rise at least 10%/yr., from what I've seen. You may be better off, if you have the dough, to buy all your metal parts as early as possible as well. As you intuit, shipping can get to be a substantial part of the cost - for me, it's running around 7% - 8%, I think. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: DFinn7971@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: COZY IV kit "I can't believe I ate the whole thing." In a message dated 97-07-28 17:39:48 EDT, prsistns@gate.net (Calvin N. Hobbs) writes: << I am thinking of ordering the whole list of materials at one time(minus the epoxy of course). >> I've mentioned this before but it still is worth repeating. In the past Wicks has offered a 10% discount for orders placed at Oshkosh. I assume they will do the same. They always have a fax machine in their booth so it would be easy to send them an order even if you can't be at the show. I won't be there till Thursday or possibly Friday. One of the early attendees might want to stop by the booth and get the phone number to be published on the mailing list. Dick Finn DFINN7971@AOL.COM From: AlWick@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:40:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: COZY: Re: COZY IV kit "I can't believe I ate the whole thing." In a message dated 97-07-28 17:39:48 EDT, you write: << Question: I am thinking of ordering the whole list of materials at one time(minus the epoxy of course). Any down side to that? Will the foam and fiber glass not decay over the four plus years needed to build. I have or can make the room for all of it. I would think I could save a good deal on the shipping costs. Whadda ya think? >> I did the same thing 2.5 years ago. Aircraft spruce. No regrets. I did not order the more expensive items which I thought I might be able to find another source. Seat belts, machined items, etc. I have been able to machine my own stuff, so saves a lot. I have all of the components except instr, engine, prop. $9500 invested so far. Both Nat's list and Wicks have errors. you will purchase unnecessary items unless you are very thorough in comparing lists. A lot of the errors are due to measurement method. Nat says 1 pc, wicks says 3 ft. Good luck Al Wick (not related to Wicks') Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:10:56 +1000 From: ginnwj Subject: COZY: COZY IV in Australia Hello Mk IV builders, I have ordered the plans and now would like to hear from anyone building a Mk IV in Australia to discuss the "ins and outs" of building and operating a Mk IV in Australia. Builders outside of the USA may have similar problems to what I will face such as the availability of materials, so I would be pleased to hear from them as well. I would also be pleased to hear from builders and operators in the USA as well of course, particularly regarding what they feel about the Mk IV (good, bad, ugly, beautiful etc.). Thanks, Bill Ginn ginnwj@ibm.net From: Aerocannon@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: COZY: Material Properties Does anyone know where one may aquire material properties for the foam/fiberglass materials utilized in the Cozy (Long, Vari,etc) ???? The materials received from Wicks does not match the description given by Puffer's plans. For example, "3/4 white low density clark foam" required and "3/4 blue 4.5#" is received from Wicks???????????????? Futhermore, Chapter 5 cost $100 more than presented in the catalog, possibly because of some extra parts (extuded angle, AN hardware) what is all of that about???? Anyway, I would like to do my own comparisons/computations/etc, but find very little relavent information from sources such as Mil Specifications, SAE, etc...does anyone out there know where Rutan or Puffer got there sources? Did they test everything?? Is that info avail?? Sorry for the double posting Thanks, Mitch Cannon --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: COZY: material properties Date: 97-09-08 01:03:44 EDT From: Aerocannon To: tom58@digital.net Does anyone know where one may aquire material properties for the foam/fiberglass materials utilized in the Cozy (Long, Vari,etc) ???? The materials received from Wicks does not match the description given by Puffer. For example, "3/4 white low density clark foam" required and "3/4 blue 4.5#" is received from Wicks???????????????? Futhermore, Chapter 5 cost $100 more than presented in the catalog, possibly because of some extra parts (extuded angle, AN hardware) what is all of that about???? Anyway, I would like to do my own comparisons, but find very little relavent information from sources such as Mil Specifications, SAE, etc...does anyone out there know? Thanks, Mitch Cannon From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Material Properties (fwd) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 97 10:09:39 EDT Mitch Cannon asks: >Does anyone know where one may aquire material properties for the >foam/fiberglass materials utilized in the Cozy (Long, Vari,etc) ???? I think the glass is made by Hexcel - don't know about the foam(s). >The materials received from Wicks does not match the description given by >Puffer's plans. >For example, "3/4 white low density clark foam" required and "3/4 blue 4.5#" >is received from Wicks???????????????? In some cases (like the Clark Foam) the original material isn't available any more, so Wicks has substituted the closest thing (usually with Nat/Burt's permission). >..... Futhermore, Chapter 5 cost $100 more >than presented in the catalog, possibly because of some extra parts (extuded >angle, AN hardware) what is all of that about???? Make sure you've got the latest catalog - the prices change incessantly and corrections are omni-present :-). Surprisingly, the prices rarely go down - $100 more than the catalog price seems a little high, but not unbelievably so. >....... Anyway, I would like to do >my own comparisons/computations/etc, but find very little relavent >information from sources such as Mil Specifications, SAE, etc...does anyone >out there know where Rutan or Puffer got there sources? Nat got them from Burt, Burt got them directly by devine revalation :-). Seriously, I think Burt used materials that were easily available. The epoxy and glass properties are pretty critical (hence all the hand-wringing over which epoxy to use and switching from glass to kevlar/carbon), but from a foam standpoint, as long as you use the right "density" and approximate type, you'll have a good structure. The density of foam can vary greatly even within a type (not a lot of quality control for floatation foam for docks :-) ). >.... Did they test everything?? Is that info avail?? Well, over 2000 EZ's flying is a pretty good sample. I know (as an engineer) what you're looking for, Mitch, but I think you'd have to go directly to the mfg. to get spec. sheets, and I've never seen them or heard who to talk to to get them. Sorry I couln't be more help. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:31:57 -0400 From: siegler@clark.net (Stuart Siegler) Subject: COZY: New Builder "Hands on" Experience. I have just returned from Jeff Russell's place and got some great hands-on experience. I was really excited When I started working on my Cozy, but some early (novice) mistakes really got me down. I spoke to the local builders, but couldn't get it all together. I went down to Jeff's shop in NC and helped him build some pieces... Jeff welcomes the company -- he gets free labor, you get great experience. I learned the correct way to wet out cloth, how to keep fibers straight, and how to repair problems as they came up. I now know the correct consistency for slurry and dry micro (boy, did I get that wrong). I helped build some complex molded pieces and worked on my Cozy as well. If you are a new builder and would like to get some great experience, give Jeff a call at 910 961 2238. He always has a open shop for people to learn if they want to work. He will do the same after the move to Florida in the new hanger/shop. Stuart Siegler Cozy Mk4 #575: Back to bulkheads! -- Stuart Siegler siegler@clark.net ssiegler@newvax.enet.dec.com http://www.clark.net/pub/siegler/ ... and we're gonna keep on having meetings 'till we find out why nothing's getting done here. From: Chm12345@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: COZY: New COZY builder Dear COZY friends, My name is Chris Martin and I just got my COZY MKIV plans #632. I am finishing construction of a KOLB Firestar to fly while I build the COZY (hopefully I'll find time to build). I live in Miami, Fl and I'm looking forward meeting other COZY builders in the area as well as in this newsgroup. My KOLB will be ready in about a month so I think I will start doing the COZY practice pieces close to December. One thought, in the KOLB, the wing rib templates are printed in paper but the coordinates defining its shape are also provided. KOLB recommends using the dimensions to build them and it is impressive how far off the printed shape actually is. Paper is not known for it's dimensional stability. My question is: How accurate will the COZY paper templates be?, Are the template coordinates or DXF files available from Nat so that I could plot them on Mylar (particularly on the wing and canard shape)?. Maybe I'm worrying about nothing but it's interesting to now. Thanks, Chris. From: "mel" Subject: Re: COZY: New COZY builder Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 22:35:01 -0400 hello were norm & monda cozy IV #202, we live in hollywood fl, were going to have another eaa meeting in oct on the 16th, the place isnt set yet but well try to let you know when and where it will be and youre welcome to attend. we members have fixtures and templates already used for 3 planes so far, youd be welcome to use them also.let us know. ---------- > From: Chm12345@aol.com > To: cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com > Subject: COZY: New COZY builder > Date: Sunday, September 28, 1997 7:48 PM > > Dear COZY friends, > > My name is Chris Martin and I just got my COZY MKIV plans #632. > > I am finishing construction of a KOLB Firestar to fly while I build the COZY > (hopefully I'll find time to build). I live in Miami, Fl and I'm looking > forward meeting other COZY builders in the area as well as in this newsgroup. > My KOLB will be ready in about a month so I think I will start doing the COZY > practice pieces close to December. > > One thought, in the KOLB, the wing rib templates are printed in paper but the > coordinates defining its shape are also provided. KOLB recommends using the > dimensions to build them and it is impressive how far off the printed shape > actually is. Paper is not known for it's dimensional stability. > > My question is: How accurate will the COZY paper templates be?, Are the > template coordinates or DXF files available from Nat so that I could plot > them on Mylar (particularly on the wing and canard shape)?. > > Maybe I'm worrying about nothing but it's interesting to now. > > Thanks, > Chris. > > Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 08:21:42 -0400 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: engine and landing gear changes from the plans Chris, re "Mainly I'd like to put in Infinity's retractable main gear as well as a liquid cooled engine that's a bit lighter than the IO-360. I also want to add a constant speed prop." You're the builder, Chris. You can do anything you like, but consider this - no one has successfully installed a liquid cooled engine in one of these machines. That's not say it can't be done but the Lycoming is so reliable, why go to all that trouble? Do you want an airplane to fly or a project that will go on and on forever? I would 10 times rather fly 60 knots faster than a Cherokee than build an airplane, and the sooner the better. dd (Spraying primer on MKIV #155) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 07:57:40 -0500 From: Chris Anderson Subject: COZY: engine and landing gear changes from the plans Not having been on the list long, I'm wondering what the atomsphere is twords deviations from certin parts of the plans. Mainly I'd like to put in Infinity's retractable main gear as well as a liquid cooled engine that's a bit lighter than the IO-360. I also want to add a constant speed prop. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Chris Anderson andersoc@wi.net Less Thought More Work! - My ex-boss Sure if it's free I'll cram some more down. - Nate Woodruff From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 17:20:03 -0600 Subject: Re: COZY: engine and landing gear changes from the plans Chris Anderson wrote: >Not having been on the list long, I'm wondering what the atomsphere is >twords deviations from certin parts of the plans. Mainly I'd like to put >in Infinity's retractable main gear as well as a liquid cooled engine >that's a bit lighter than the IO-360. I also want to add a constant speed >prop. There are a few on the list doing all of those; and some doing more. You will probably find both help and hinderance based on a wide variety of experience, real or imagined facts, and on plain old beliefs or even fear. I believe that is exacly what the list is all about. Take what is usefull to you and move forward in whatever direction 'you' select. Just remember it's your butt, regardless of what you do, how you build, or even if you follow the plans religiously. Bottom line is it's your plane and your blood, sweat and tears and your experiment. Regardless of what you do, It's an aeronautical experiment and is licensed and recognized by the general public and the government as such. By all means have fun. Just don't be the kind of person who would chase a ball in front of a speeding car just because you think you can. Evaluate, evaluate, evaluate; and then get a twentieth opinion. If it still makes sense to you; do it. Just never ever point fingers at someone else (including NAT if you follow the plans religiously). After all, "YOU" decided to buy the plans. He could be a felon and con artist; you did check out the design didn't you?.... As for "atmospher" on the list: depends on the altitude and who you ask.... Good luck and welcome. Larry Schuler #500 ch-10 lschuler@cellular.uscc.com From: SBLANKDDS@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:45:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: COZY: COZY - Extra Electrical stuff & Getting rides. Just want to share tonights experience with all of you that fly..... While spamming around (c-150), I was recieving flight following from SUA to PCM, when the radio and x-ponder went dead...and soon I figured out that the generator failed and the battery was on the last few milli-amps..... Miami Center was great, they called my destination before I arrived and checked to see why I disappeared from their radar so abruptly. (I was VFR without a flight plan). We finished the flight, and practiced a no flap landing without much dificulty. It made me think of all the things we keep adding to our simple Cozy's. Everything is great when it works.....but are you prepared to continue flying and land without electric? Did I mention that is was at night? How much of your panel is electric? Your intercom? Nose gear, speed brake, VOR, GPS, Landing light? How good is your pilotage when all the goodies fail? Redundancy when possible, simplicity the rest of the time. Go practice some more no flaps landings without the landing light...and if possible ask your local tower and practice the light signals on a quiet day...good for both you and the controller in the tower. Do you remember what the procedure is if your radio fails at a controlled vs. uncontrolled field? Good time to study while you are still on the ground....... Safe Flying to all.......Hope I made you think !!! P.S. - Speak up and ask for rides, I have time in an VE, Cozy and Cozy Mark IV, RV-6 and other experimentals. The RV-6 gave me my first feel for flying a faster plane and controlling airspeed on approach...I tried to ignore the rivits. Steve Blank Cozy Mark IV #36.......still building......... Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 13:30:35 -0700 From: "LCDR James D. Newman" Organization: INFINITY Aerospace - http://www.flash.net/~infaero Subject: COZY: Re: Extra Electrical stuff & Getting rides. Hi Carl and All, >Agree, be prepared, remember, no electric, NO trim, NO gear extension, ETC, ETC.< The electric trim system in Todd Morgan's '95 Oshkosh Grand Champion Cozy III is connected into the original mechanical trim system and is easily disconnected via a pit pin by the pilots leg if the electric actuator fails, or you've lost all electrical power (both the alternator and battery). He, also, won the Stan Ditzke Award for Safety that year at Oshkosh with this system electrically connected to our Stick Grips. Steve Wright's electric nose lift system, our 1 lb. 7 oz. nose retract motor, and our steerable oleo nose strut all have a mechanical backup. HTH. Infinity's Forever JD Internet Mail Server 2.0b5); Sat, 4 Oct 1997 22:52:27 -0600 Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 22:52:39 -0500 From: Chris Anderson Subject: COZY: Changes in Control Stick I was wondering if anyone had considered putting the the main control stick in a different place than the sides of the cockpit? Perhaps a single stick in the center and throttles on the sides? I was just wondering. I haven't seen the plans yet so pardon me if there is some really obvious reason why ya can't do this. 8) Thanks. Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 18:53:11 +0100 From: edegov@iafrica.com (ernie de goveia) Subject: COZY: Changes in stick control Chris Anderson wrote Perhaps a single stick in the center and throttles on the sides? Yes go ahead, it would be an interesting change, but would you remove/not remove the existing control system?Why would you do either? How would you connect the center stick to aileron controls aft of the firewall? What fittings would have to be designed to do this, how would you protect the controls passing thru the rear of the cockpit? Why would you have to do so? Are you going to have the engine controls on one wall or both, how are the cable runs going to get to the engine, if on both sides? How is the centre stick going to connect to the elevator, as it must?There is a wheel housing and retract mechanism in the way. One change does effect alot of other bits and pieces, all of which must be considered Thus any change to the design must be well thought out, and must be neccesary to be even considered, ask the guys who have have done these things. How long did you intend to take building this airplane? Don't let me put you off, if you must do it, then do it. but do know what you are facing, discuss every thing with this group. Have fun and let us know how you go. Ernie in Cape Town From: DFinn7971@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Changes in Control Stick In a message dated 97-10-05 00:02:25 EDT, andersoc@wi.net writes: << I was wondering if anyone had considered putting the the main control stick in a different place than the sides of the cockpit? Perhaps a single stick in the center and throttles on the sides? >> Off the top of my head, it seems that the linkage to the elevators would get cluttered up with the instruments, landing brake and retraction mechanism for the nose gear. There seems to be less clutter on the sides. Nothing impossible (especially with electrically activated nose and landing brake) just seems a little easier on the sides. Of course I'm left handed so I don't consider the side stick an inconvenience. Dick Finn Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 17:29:56 -0400 From: Ian Douglas Organization: WTC Subject: Re: COZY: Changes in stick control Hey guys, I've already seen a III with a centre (Canadian eh!) stick. Maybe Nigel would let you all in on his mods, what do you say Nigel ;-)? -- Ian D.S. Douglas Cozy IV #626 Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 21:05:20 -0400 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: Changes in Control Stick Chris, re "I was wondering if anyone had considered putting the the main control stick in a different place than the sides of the cockpit? Perhaps a single stick in the center and throttles on the sides?" If this arrangement is really important, consider building a Velocity. I've had a ride in the 173 and rather like the set up, but I'm not about to rebuild my MKIV to that configeration at this late date. dd MKIV 155 (killing pin holes - 7 hours worth today) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 22:53:05 -0700 From: Rego and Noleen Burger Organization: R.N.B. Enterprises Subject: Re: COZY: Changes in Control Stick Why Not! Here's how Put engine controls on the centre stick TOO! Run all the controls through the centre area above the heat duct. Use a rotating throttle like on motorcycles with a push-pull cable, flight will be single handed, rotate for power all on one stick. Like the power and collective on choppers. PS it's not new there's a velocity in the states operating like this. :-) -- Rego Burger CZ4#139 RSA, http://home.intekom.com/glen/rnb.htm From: "McElhoe, Bruce" Subject: Re: COZY: metal parts Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 09:55:00 HST ---------- From: owner-cozy_builders To: Boykin Ed (C) Cc: Cozy Builders Subject: Re: COZY: metal parts Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 2:57PM Hi Ed, start asap. I started in my studio aptm.2 years ago and yesterday moved to a house with a garage. you can build lots of components untill you are ready for the big stuff. This way you can save about a year of building time. There is a lot you can do in a small space and at friends shops. Go for it and good luck. Bulent Ed -- I agree. There are a lot of small components you can start on. I did exactly that with my Long-EZ. I didn't have a shop to work in for the first year, so I cut out little metal parts, assembled bearings, landing brake components, landing light stuff, all the control rods, rudders, and many small components. It gave me a good start and a good understanding of the overall project . Go for it! Bruce McElhoe L-EZ N64MC From: "Boykin Ed (C)" Subject: COZY: metal parts Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:31:55 -0400 I may not be able to start building my MK IV for several years due to money and space limitations. This is mainly to a large debt from college and the fact that I still live in an apartment. Anyway, I was wondering if building some of the smaller parts of the airplane might be possible. For instance, I think I would have enough space on my apartment balcony to build the fuselage bulkheads and MAYBE the canard. My concern is that if don't follow the plans in order will I be shooting myself in the foot? Can I cut and partially assemble some of the metal parts without having the rest of the airplane to exactly fit the pieces to? If I were to cut and lay-up the canard or fuselage bulkheads will I have problems with the pieces sitting around for several years before they are used again?(other than being careful how I store them). As I understand it I could build the airplane minus engine and avionics for about 15 grand for parts plus whatever the tools and other misc. things would cost(assuming I don't use prefab stuff). What kind of options might I have for finding building space other than buying a house? An airport hangar would probably be WAAAY to expensive. Any help is welcomed.. Thanks Ed Boykin From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Ellipse Report - November 1997 (fwd) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 97 11:24:24 EDT People; An article in the November issue of "Kitplanes" magazine had many unfair references to composite construction techniques (not to mention a poor understanding of aerodynamics). Since many Pre-Build people read this list, I thought that I'd forward a letter that I sent to the editor of Kitplanes regarding this article. > > 47 Flint Rd. > Acton, MA 01720 > 978-263-0441 > >Dave Martin - Editor >Kitplanes Magazine > > >Dear Sir; > > I have read your magazine regularly for the past few years and >generally find it a reliable and interesting source of information >regarding the experimental aviation industry. However, I must take >exception to the "Shape of an Ellipse" article written by John M. Larsen >in the November 1997 issue. > >While discussing the "Wing Success", Larsen states that "The elliptical >contour will have less wetted area, hence less drag". Without going into >the derivation of the aerodynamics, the elliptical shape of a wing >reduces the "induced" drag of the wing, NOT the profile (wetted area) >drag. Tapered wings are a close attempt to easily approximate the >elliptical shape of a "perfect" three dimensional wing from an "induced >drag" standpoint, but are easier to construct. However, the wetted area >of the wing is totally dependent on it's size, not on it's planform. > >More importantly, Mr. Larsen makes some unsubstantiated claims regarding >composite aircraft - first, he claims that "One in particular has to >maintain (sic) above 120 mph, with a deadstick situation to flare on >landing." > >Mr. Larsen does not indicate to which plane he refers, nor from where he >received his information. This statement does not make any sense from an >aerodynamic standpoint for any generally available composite kit or plans >built plane of which I have knowledge - certainly not for any of the >Rutan derivative canard composites, nor for the Glasairs nor Lancairs. >If an aircraft does not need to maintain 120 mph in order to land with >the engine idling, it will not need to maintain such a speed to land with >the engine off. > >Mr. Larsen then goes on to claim that "an engineer friend who works with >composites confided that to his knowledge no one has ever survived an >off-field forced landing in one of these planes." Again, without any >indication to which plane he refers nor an indication of the "engineer >friend"'s name, I can only interpret these statements as thinly veiled >attempts to scare people away from composite construction techniques - >techniques which have proved themselves safe and effective in thousands >of flying homebuilt aircraft. Without an indication to which plane Mr. >Larsen refers, it becomes impossible for anyone to verify the truth or >falsity of his (or his "friend"'s) claim. > >Mr. Larsen's last faux pas has to do with his statement regarding wood >construction that "Properly treated it will last indefinitely. Many of >the composite planes have yet to face the test of time." Once again, Mr. >Larsen attempts to belittle composite construction techniques, which >have, in fact, stood the test of the last 20 years, given the "proper >treatment" that he has stated the wood techniques will also require. >Thousands of flying Lancairs, Glasairs, V.E.'s, L.E.'s, Velocity's and >Cozy's attest to this time tested technique. I will go out on a limb and >state that no aircraft of the aformentioned types have had accidents due >to structural failure of composite members when properly constructed. I >doubt that Mr. Larsen can truthfully say the same about all wood and/or >aluminum aircraft. > >I do not try to argue that composite aircraft beat wood aircraft in all >categories - I have no doubt that the Ellipse has many fine qualities and >that for a particular need, it will perform more than adequately. >However, we should say the same for composite aircraft - for a given need >profile, composites can fit the bill safely and adequately. > >I believe that statements such as the ones quoted above show Mr. Larsens >inadequate understanding of aircraft flying and/or building theory (and >practice), and I believe it irresponsible of your magazine to print these >statements (or any like them) without any evidence whatsoever to back >them up. > >Thank you. > > Sincerely, > > Marc J. Zeitlin > via email > -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 14:57:48 -0500 From: Bulent Subject: Re: COZY: metal parts Hi Ed, start asap. I started in my studio aptm.2 years ago and yesterday moved to a house with a garage. you can build lots of components untill you are ready for the big stuff. This way you can save about a year of building time. There is a lot you can do in a small space and at friends shops. Go for it and good luck. Bulent From: "Frank" Subject: Re: COZY: metal parts Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:42:41 -0400 howdy Ed go for it! I started in the living room cutting out templets and small parts. lasted 6 months till wife ran me out said i had to build a shop the parts were geting to big. probbably could have pushed for a nother 6 mo. but gave in. but a lot got done. the parts you do apoxy do it out side and you will last longer in the house. good luck Frank johanson Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:10:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Nigel Field Subject: Re: COZY: Changes in stick control At 05:29 PM 10/5/97 -0400, Ian D.S. Douglas wrote: >Hey guys, > >I've already seen a III with a centre (Canadian eh!) stick. Maybe Nigel >would let you all in on his mods, what do you say Nigel ;-)? >-- Ian welcome aboard to the glue sniffers group. Major design changes such as this tend to create unrest in the multitude so I won't get into any detail here. I installed a centre stick because all my flying since 1965 has been with the stick in my right hand, throttle in left and I fully intend to keep flying my VE when my Cozy III, ah, excuse me, its call a Suze II, once I get Suze flying. Don't want to be faced with a reverse control configuration between airplanes. So I refered to the E-racer plans and pretty much did what Shirl Dickey already figured out. I understand however that it is an easy pilot conversion to a left hand stick, right hand throttle, but never tried it myself. If anyone wants the gory details, can provide directly, just ask. Nigel Field Subaru Vari-ez, Subaru Fat Long-eze, 2 place, big baggage bay (Suze II) From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: metal parts (fwd) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 9:29:44 EDT Ed Boykin wrote: >I was wondering if building some of the smaller parts of the airplane >might be possible. Absolutely. >My concern is that if don't follow the plans in order will I be shooting >myself in the foot? No. Many of the chapters are not dependent on what comes before or after (to some extent) and can be done independently. >..... Can I cut and partially assemble some of the metal >parts without having the rest of the airplane to exactly fit the pieces >to? Sure can. If you have access to a machine shop, and/or know how to weld, you can save yourself a fortune by making the metal parts yourself instead of buying them from Brock. You could easily do the whole nose gear subassembly (and mount it on the wall in your apartment :-) ), as well as many other sections. >... If I were to cut and lay-up the canard or fuselage bulkheads will I >have problems with the pieces sitting around for several years before >they are used again?(other than being careful how I store them). Nope. Most people make these parts and then have them sitting around for years before using them. My canard, main spar, and both wings have been hanging up on the wall in the basement for well over a year now. Just support them well with no twisting forces. You probably don't want to make the fuselage assembly, but you could do all the bulkheads, the main spar, the canard/elevators, the control system parts, the nose gear, the main gear (up to a point, without the fuselage), and many other small parts. Go for it - get a head start! -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: Epplin John A Subject: RE: COZY: metal parts Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:42:23 -0500 Ed: I agree with the other suggestions posted so far. I only want to add one thing. The Epoxy used is not suitable for long term ultra-violet exposure. A u-v barrier is applied during the finishing process to correct this. After you make your components, you should protect them from light. I use black plastic sheeting form the local building supply. Any thickness will do fine, whatever they have the best deal on. Also, there are some rather economical tarps available that could be used for larger components, my wings are sitting in cradles supported with the leading edge down with several bands of lawnchair webbing and covered by an ugly blue tarp. It is easy to remove for show and tell etc. John epplin Mk4 #467 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:14:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Bill Jackson Subject: COZY: Ed Boykin >Hi Ed, I will go over the plans and try to make a list for every chapter >of things and components you can build in a smaller workshop. >Bulent Mr. Bulent, I'm in the same situation and would like to get a lot of small things done over the winter. I was hoping someone had some methods for making some of the smallerpieces efficiently. The page in the plans showing optimal foam layout is an example. I wonder if it would be possible to trace out all components that require the same cloth, number of layers, and orientation on a single sheet of foam and layup the entire sheet, then knife trim when green cured rather than cut each piece individually. Bill Jackson w-jackson@cecer.army.mil Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:20:14 -0500 From: Paul Comte Subject: Re: COZY: metal parts Boykin Ed (C) wrote: > > I may not be able to start building my MK IV for several years due to > money and space limitations. > This is mainly to a large debt from college and the fact that I still > live in an apartment. Anyway, snip > Any help is welcomed.. Thanks > > Ed Boykin Ed, get started on anything. I have found it very difficult to get started, there will always be something else crying for your time. The people who finish their projects almost always say it is critical to try and do something, anything, on the project EVERY DAY. If you start now and allocate time from your life for this project it will be easier to keep on building later. Living in the apartment actually leaves you with more time than those of us who have the house with a workshop. Ya, we've got them AND all the maintenance they require. Go for it. -- Best Regards, Paul Comte A Plus Computer Service, LLC. 5100 West Blue Mound Road Milwaukee, WI 53208-3654 (414) 456-9700 Voice (414) 456-9701 Fax Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 10:50:33 -0500 From: Bulent Subject: Re: COZY: Ed Boykin Hi Mr. Jackson, I think it will be difficult to cut out the parts from the foam sheet after the glass layup has cured. Also you are running high risk of pulling the glass off the foam. The best way is cut the foam parts first and than you can do a gang layup of few parts at the same time that require the same orientation and # of layers of glass. Later knife trim them apart. For the bulkheads I would recommend you cut the two halves together on top of each other and then join them along the centerline. the drawings in the plans are distorted and this way you will have simetric bulkheads. Good Luck Bulent Aliev (Buly) 954-713-8117 Off From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Small Shop start (fwd) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 11:05:44 EDT Bulent Aliev wrote: >Chapter 5 You can also cut out all foam parts - make sure to mark them >Chapter 6 You can also cut out all foam parts - make sure to mark them Chapter 9 Gear torsional wrap and tab layups - no hole drilling Chapter 10, 11 Complete canard with elevators >Chapter 14 Heck, I'd say do the whole spar >chapter 20 Can make complete winglets Chapter 24 Can make some of the miscellaneous fairings, seats, etc. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 10:45:06 -0500 From: Bulent Subject: COZY: Small Shop start Hi Ed as I promised this is a list of things that anyone can start building in a smaller shop than the ideal two car garage. All the parts listed below will eat up a year of building time and you will get a taste what is coming ahead. I started the same way two years ago in a studio aptm. And now I have the fuselage, canard, wings and winglets, turtle back and much more. The bigger items were built at my friend's and Cozy IV builder Todd Silver=92s shop. Just go for IT. Chapter 4 All the bulkheads Chapter 5 All the wood parts Electrical conduits Chapter 6 Air ducts, seatbrace, fuel valve bracket chapter 8 Head rests, shoulder brace heat duct metal parts, seat belt L brackets Chapter 13 Nose gear - the whole assembly with bulkheads ready to install Rudder pedals and assoc. metal parts Chapter 14 All alum. hard points chapter 19 All wing templates for hot wiring all wing alum. hard points cut hinges 12 bushings chapter 21 All strake internal bulkheads Chapter 16 All the parts on Page 2 There must be more things that I have missed. Good Luck. Bulent (Buly) Aliev 954-713-8117 Florida Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:48:37 -0400 From: bil kleb Organization: NASA Langley Research Center Subject: COZY: prefab parts (was: chap 10 - clts) Jim Hocut wrote: > > I don't see why more builders don't make their own. actually, i went through the drawings for most of the prefab parts used in part one of the plans and did a hassle/cost analysis.* and, as many people have remarked previously, brock seems to price right on the border. based on my arbitrary rating system, i have decided to make the following: MKMGA tubes w/bushings MKMG-4 bushings MKNC-12A left and right offsets w/control arms NC-5A pitch belhorn assy NC-8L hinge pins NC-6 torque tube end plugs NC-3 hinge insert NC-2 hinge arm MKNG-61 crank tube CS301 belhorns (internal version) CS152R/CS-132R steel belhorns MKRPR/L rudder pedals (aerocad version) gregg p lent his NC-7s (elevator jigs), otherwise those would be on the list also (thanks gregg!). note: the raw materials for all these parts is less than $100. *actually, while stranded from the project during a vacation, i copied all the scattered part drawings and notes, and put them all together on 11x17 sheets, replete with materials lists. -- bil From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:37:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Brock's stuff (fwd) There are certain processes required for some parts. In some cases just having the correct material and doing a good job of workmanship is not adequate. The plating on most steel parts requires a heat treatment process (baking) immediately after plating. I don't know the details, but before building parts make sure that you know exactly what is needed. Carl Denk: "cdenk@ix.netcom.com" From: "norm & monda" Subject: Re: COZY: Brock's stuff Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:53:20 -0400 i dont know about the list. but boy are you going to spend some cash. however everything i did buy from them was first rate, but check the requirements out a lot of these small parts are so easy to make your self you really dont need to buy them unless speed of build is more important than cash norm & monda cozy IV #202 ---------- > From: Boykin Ed (C) > To: 'Cozy' > Subject: COZY: Brock's stuff > Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 3:40 PM > > Is there a list available somewhere that lists ALL prefab stuff that > Brock can supply? The Brock web site has what looks like two scanned > catalog pages but they definitely don't list everything he has. I was > thinking about buying all the prefab metal stuff in one fell swoop and > wanted to be sure I got everything.... > > > Ed Boykin From: N11TE@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:03:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: COZY: rear seats (fwd) Again, Carl, you have performed a valuable service to all of us builders in pointing out how minor appearing changes can result in major structural changes. As you state; "The Cozy airframe is a complex indeterminate structure..." Many of us are making changes without knowing the potential result of what we are doing. I personally asked Nat if he had an engineer do the analysis on his changes and was told that there was none done. So, as I understand it, Burt Rutan supposidly did complete structural analysis on the VariEZ and LongEZ designs. The structural changes made by Nat Puffer to widen the fuselage originally for 3 and now 4 passengers has never been reviewed. This has bothered me as I don't know where we are approaching the original design limits. Recently, a licensed professional aeronotical engineer did a comparison analysis of the LongEZ and Cozy plans and found that the great majority of the Cozy plans pages are word for word. This does not, in any way, mean to be a negative on Nat's part. He did make the changes, he did build the proof of plans models, and it is very obvious that the plane flys very well. From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:01:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: rear seats (fwd) N11TE writes One of the most perplexing things an engineer has to deal with is something that performs quite adequately, but the normal calculations and engineering judgement cannot justify the situation. Sometimes its very simple that you are into the normal factor of safety, and with respect to the health, welfare, and safety of the general public. You may be into the fatique life, remember the Comet airliner, where it took a while to have the failure. Structural engineers have a thing we call the "Sleep factor", if I don't wake up in the middle of the night, with a thought to recheck a detail, its probably a good design. All I can tell everyone, I don't know what, if any calculations Burt did or didn't, but the practical experience is that it works as it is, be very careful before changing anything of the basics. I believe there are very few IF ANY people, that have the experience to change anything other than minor details. Note: 90% of building structural failures are details, not main members, i.e. beams and columns. The walkway failure at the Kansas City Holiday Inn several years ago, was what most would consider a minor detail, killing more than a few humans.. Carl Denk: "cdenk@ix.netcom.com" From: "Boykin Ed (C)" Subject: COZY: Materials List Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:14:51 -0400 Is there a Materials list that someone has typed out available on the web or from the mailing list? I was getting ready to type it out myself but I thought I should see if it's already been done. Thanks for the help... Ed Boykin (First 3 hours of prep completed-A whole bunch more left) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:31:35 -0400 From: bil kleb Organization: NASA Langley Research Center Subject: Re: COZY: Materials List Boykin Ed (C) wrote: > > Is there a Materials list that someone has typed out available > on the web or from the mailing list? i am confused. (not too difficult to accomplish ;) ) what is wrong with that given in chapter 2 of the plans, or that listed in the beginning of the wicks catalog? i would think that obtaining these should be part of "prep"? -- bil From: "Neal Newman" Subject: Re: COZY: build times, Fess up Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:43:32 -0500 Hi terance and all you other Cozy builders.. this message is really to all those that have finished and flying their Cozy's The wife gave away my epoxy pump with my original cozy project while I was disabled...for those that don't know me I broke my neck at work several years ago. 2 surgerys later and lots of therapy. I'M back on my feet. and returned to work FINALLY last month..Now Its time to start building again.. this time a COZY MK4 I am looking if any of you guys have an old epoxy pump that you are no longer using are interested in selling? or am I better off buying a new pump? I looked in the aircraft spruce book. and see the epoxys. in the Cozy chapter section. I gather these are new epoxys..are you guys still using Saf-T-poxy? which epoxy is better the RAE or the PTM&W ? last question...is there enough glass,flox and mico when you order the kits by chapter????? when I start this project I plan on ordering chapters 4,5,6,7 as the first order... any input on this would be greatful. Neal ---------- > From: Terence J. Pierce > To: cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com > Subject: COZY: build times, Fess up > Date: Tuesday, November 04, 1997 10:35 AM > > Alright out of 270 some people on this group, only 7 people have there > build times posted on Marc's Web page. And these people have had to of > built a plane before. What I think the problem here is that everyone > elses build times are significantly higher than those posted on Marc's > Web page. And you are embarrassed to post yours. I was, but now I will > swallow my pride and show you just how long it can take. At least I am > pressing on. I am on chapter 7 now and I started in May of this year. > So don't laught if you have been in pre-build stage for 3 years now. So > fess up and lets here what your build times are. > > Here are mine: > > Chapter hours > 4 101 > 5 85 > 6 129 > > Yes, I am slow, but I think I am doing nice work. > > These times only include actual work times. Not reading the plans, not > guest tours, not cleaning up, ect... > -- > Terry Pierce mailto:tpierce@ghg.net > Cozy Mark IV #600 From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: epoxy information Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 14:37:41 EST Neal Newman wrote: >I am looking if any of you guys have an old epoxy pump that you are no >longer using are interested in selling? or am I better off buying a new pump? Well, if no one's willing to sell you one, then a new one would be in order :-). Seriously, a pump (IMHO) is a valuable investment - an adjustable one would be good if you need to switch epoxies in the future. This is a matter of opinion, though - many people believe in weighing the epoxy instead. >I gather these are new epoxys..are you guys still using Saf-T-poxy? >which epoxy is better the RAE or the PTM&W ? I was waiting to see if anyone would reply to this..... You'd be well served to read the archives on epoxy information. This subject has been beat to death two or three times at least over the past two years. Send a message to: majordomo@hpwarhw.an.hp.com with the lines: get cozy_builders topics/epoxy_info.txt get cozy_builders topics/epox_protect.txt get cozy_builders topics95/epoxy_info.txt get cozy_builders topics96/epox_measr.txt get cozy_builders topics96/epoxy_info.txt end You'll know everything that anyone has ever said here on the subject, after reading those. >last question...is there enough glass,flox and mico when you order the kits >by chapter????? Depends upon how careful you are. Glass, flox and Microballoons are all relatively cheap, in the grand scheme of things. I'd get an extra 5 lb. of micro, extra 3 lb. of flox, and an extra 20 yards of BID and UNI, each, just to account for mismeasurements, mistakes and overage. Also, get (and keep handy) an extra gallon of epoxy so that you're not stuck when you run out. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Thu, 20 Nov 97 08:42:00 PST From: Brian DeFord Subject: Re: COZY: Brock / metal parts-Reply Rego wrote... >Ask yourself, if this part broke would the $ 10-00 saving be worth it? >Is it going to cause a tragic end to a flight or would it just be an >inconvenience to repair. If it will cause no life or limb damage make >it, if it's a threat to safety buy it! If it will keep me from working >on the airframe for days or weeks buy it! >The last question I ask myself is what could I be earning in this time >spent making the items? Rego, I understand from your perspective what you are trying to say, but not all of us have the same reasons for building the Cozy that you may have or for that matter anyone on this list. Here are a few reasons I came up with that people may have: Want to fly a cool looking plane Want to build a plane from scratch Want to build a plane and fly it Want to fly a high performance plane but because of $$ must build it Want a plane and money is no object Ok, so I haven't covered all possibilities, but as you can see there can be quite a few reasons why people may want to build a parts themselves based on there reasons for building a plane in the first place. I can't say that I would use your rule of thumb about whether to buy or build if the result of a failure is a threat to safety. I'm building the WINGS and if they fail you had better believe I would consider that a safety threat! That doesn't mean I'll buy them instead of make them. Same goes for metal parts. So what if it takes me a week to crank out a metal part. If my reasons to build are for personal enjoyment then that week will be just as enjoyable as if I were building the fuselage or wing or any other part. (OK, so the months spent sanding prior to painting may not be as enjoyable as other parts of the project :) ) Just my $.02 worth. Brian DeFord From: AlWick@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:41:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: COZY: Brock / metal parts-Reply In a message dated 97-11-20 03:08:19 EST, burgerr@telkom.co.za writes: << I have always weighed up the time / cost and risk factors of home made parts. What I found was that the airframe is labour intensive enough. >> Sounds reasonable. Depends on where you are coming from. I bought most of my raw materials from Spruce, made most of the parts. Most are very simple. Some have very tight tolerances. Those with machining experience can handle these simple parts ok. I had little experience, but real good equip avail. Only broke 2 reamers :-). FWIW -al From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:53:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Brock / metal parts-Reply There has been considerable traffic recently on making parts nomally=20 furnished by Brock.=20 With the local EAA newsletter the following came, its from NASA documents= .=20 "Hydrogen Embrittlement occurs whenever thre is free hydrogen in close=20 association with the metal. Since most plating processes are the=20 electrolytic bath type, free hydrogen is present." Summing the related=20 problems: "Hydrogen reacts with carbon in steel ... reduce the overall=20 strength", Internal hydrogen embrittlement ... delayed failure after proo= f=20 testing", "Hydrogen environment embrittlement" ... Not a factor unless=20 fastener under stress in a pressure vessel. "Most plating specifications now state that a plated carbon steel fastene= r=20 "shall be baked for not less than 23 hours in 375 =B1 25F within 2 hours=20 after plating to provide embrittlement relief"",=20 DO not take the above as instructions, but as an indicator of complicated= =20 procedures that must be followed, and many plating houses may not be able= =20 to do properly.=20 I concur with the following: 1: Yes the parts are expensive from Brock. 2: The quality in general is very good. 3: I preferred trading money for time. 4: Many of the parts require precision machining, welding, heat treating=20 including the above, and jigging that make it impractical for the average= =20 builder to complete the parts properly and timely. 5: The additional cost is minor when put into total cost. Excuse me for=20 being blunt, but if someone is complaining of cost or unable to fund, may= be=20 they are in the WRONG hobby! Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:31:42 -0500 From: Jim Hocut Subject: Re: COZY: Brock / metal parts-Reply cdenk@ix.netcom.com, wrote >... Excuse me for >being blunt, but if someone is complaining of cost or unable to fund, maybe >they are in the WRONG hobby! > Hmm, seems that I remember something in some FAA documents about one of the purposes of the experimental aircraft category being for the builder's education. I've made many of the metal parts with the help of a fellow EAA'er with lots of machining experience, and am now comfortable using a lathe. I think I'd call that education. Excuse me for being blunt, but if someone is only interested in the final product instead of learning a few new skills along the way, and is so willing and able to trade money for parts maybe THEY are in the wrong hobby. Jim Hocut jhocut@mindspring.com From: Bes1612@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:47:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: COZY: reason for building- I recently read in Kitplanes, in the letters, an A&P wrote saying he did not understand why people build. 1. For $40,000 he says he would buy an 4-place with twice the power. Plus insurace cost would be less. 2. After spending all that time to build, if you concidered your time worth anything you would spend well over the cost of an factory airplane. Not to mention the headache that go along with the effort. The editor wrote back a good reply about the sence of accoplishment, and the cost comparison, and the insurance rates being comperable after flight testing with factory planes. I think he missed something very important, especially about cost and about accomplishment. Particularly talking to an A&P. After I build, I am the certified mechanic for my aircraft. I do not have to pay someone else to annual my aircraft, saving me thousands of dollars, particularly over the life of the aircraft. I like that aspect of building your own. There are so many reasons to build something, and no reason applies to all. We are all doing this for our own reasons. If I was in the wrong hobby, I would have known it shortly after the first five grand parts shipment! I love building this airplane. Every idem is a joy and a thrill to see done. The time is irrelivant, because of the peasure of building. The cost - the cost is only rellevant if I do not have the money. I've sold my car, and take money from other things to buy material. I work extry jobs to support my addiction to my airplane. But it all comes down to what I love, and what you love, we do what we love. If you only love to fly then go rent, or buy a factory airplane. I know that flying this thing will also be a wonder, but right now, I'm loveing everything about building. I'm sure most of you guys agree. Bob (married to my cozy!) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:26:07 -0500 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: Cosy operating Costs Ian, re "Nigel Field flys his LE off of the same strip, and as far as I know, he has NEVER suffered any damage due to field conditions." I guess there are sod strips and there are smooth sod strips. I flew my LEZ off a very nice grass runway in Connecticut three times and refinished the prop three times. (The three times is a little unusual for me, 'cause I learn most things the second time around) dd From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 07:09:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Cosy operating Costs Ian Douglas writes Wheel pants definately help keep prop damage to a minimum. Landing brake should be deployed whenever airframe is moving on ground. I split a prop the day before the FAA came for inspection (no wheel pants). 2nd prop wiped out with engine swallowing valve - exhaust valve broke up, went out exhaust pipe. Enough problems on pavement with what you can see, maybe, don't know what is lurking between the green blades of grass. Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:10:27 -0600 (CST) From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: COZY: Cosy operating Costs Ian Douglas writes I am not critical of anyones flying habits as long as they are safe and within the competence level of the pilot. The original posting was to be informative and help prospective builders set budgets. Others are welcome to add to the data with their experience, but please actual $$, except for small items. FIRST: a normal year of flying has been 150 hours, though last 12 months has been only 90 hours. Part retirement, bad weather when I wasn't working when there was work to do main reason. As I am writing this the ceilings are 2000 - 3000 overcast all the way to middle Georgia from Cleveland, and we are packed to leave a a moments notice for Sarasota, Florida. Temperatures are not a factor, except for avoiding icing. The hanger is heated, water, compressed air, with our (Terry Schubert and self) bench and tool boxes, located for me a 10 minute drive from home. Yes the $160/month is high, but it is the going rate. I have done the last 2 annuals in the winter in relative comfort. For whatever reasons the tires are close enough to being worn out at annual, and I change them and the brake pads then. The annual costs of $200 include new filters for the vacuum system and a portion of the costs of fine wire sparkplugs, and other small items. IFR charts: $350 - The Cosy is a long haul aircraft, there are fronts and lake effect (Lake Erie) weather out there. It helps get there safely, but I don't push the weather, i.e. I would be flying now if I wasn't conservative. The Sky prints work well where cockpit space is limited. The spiral bound volume sits nicely on the lap. Airport Directory: Airguide, This is also a space saving item. I keep them in the headrest hole. They have considerable information from airport diagram, frequencies, restaurants, motels, and runway slope which is important. Propellers: Yes, I have considerable wood working experience, but by the time I would study the process, buy the necessary equipment, and then my time is valuable also. I have elected to purchase mine. Prehaps Nigel can write a bit on whats required to make your own propeller. (Equipment, costs, sources of material, how the shape is arrived at, how many props made before happy with performance. Landing Fees: In a typical year from Cleveland, Oh the plane will go to (2) Florida, Altlanta, Arizona, Jackson, Wyo. I have paid from $2 at Cleveland lakefront to $8 at Atlanta Peachtree Decalb. My wife and I have not traveled commercial since the Cosy has been flying. Prehaps commecial fares should be included in total costs, or I should deduct fares for long haul flights. I might end up negative costs! by post.larc.nasa.gov (8.8.6.1/pohub4.2) with SMTP id NAA03029 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:07:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 13:03:27 -0500 From: Paul Krasa Subject: Re: COZY: Cosy operating Costs > >The hanger is heated, water, compressed air, with our (Terry Schubert and >self) bench and tool boxes, located for me a 10 minute drive from home. Yes >the $160/month is high, but it is the going rate. I have done the last 2 >annuals in the winter in relative comfort. > $160 is high for heat, water, compressed air? WOW!!!! I wished I could have those rates. I paid $175 a month in FL, and the going rate in VA is $160 or higher for just the hanger; no heat, water or air. Paul Krasa Long EZ 214LP From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 14:50:27 -0600 Subject: COZY: Suggestions FYI/FWW Here's a couple suggestions, some of you may already know, but worth repeating for those who havn't seen them. 1. Nat suggests brads or staples to hold the peel ply in place on the bottom of the canard's tail when doing the skin layup. I plan to use some double-sided plastic tape. Been using it to hold other stuff together where 5-Minute epoxy is called out such as holding the landing brake in place when bottom fuselage layup is done. Works real good if semi-permanent holding power (5-minute epoxy) isn't necessary and makes removal/clean up a no-effort job with zero damage. A little tricky laying it down sometimes, but worth the effort in appropriate spots. I found a dispenser just like standard one-sided tape, with no protective backing between wraps; this stuff was VERY tricky without backing. 3M and others make some specifically for taping window- sealing plastic in place (for those of us who live north of the majic line were it goes from hot to freezing); this stuff comes in rolls the size of standard plastic tape, but has a backing layer on one side. I looked at double-sided carpet tape as well, it might work, but could only find 1-1/2" to 2" wide rolls. 2. Nat calls out the use of nails to hold things together many times, such as holding pieces of foam together or the longerons to the fuselage sides and so on. After twisting off at least one nail in a longeron trying to get it out (hoping it doesn't rust), and deciding that screws are either too fat for the job or leave too big a hole requiring repair, I found a better idea. Found modeling "T" Pins to work very well. The very small diameter (relative to the nails I have used) have considerably smaller bonding area. They twist out easily and are easily cleaned of hard epoxy spots with a knife for re-use. Come in several sizes, but I prefer the biggest ones. A little more expensive than nails, but easily re-usable with cleanup. VERY handy for holding foam-to-foam. 3. Where better than pin or nail, but still temporary, holding power is needed, 2" to 2-1/2" sheetrock screws work great (Thanks Jeff Russell) such as hot wire templates or the bulkheads to the fuselage sides, or canard supports when doing the shear web layup (4" and longer scews are available). Easily removed. Cheap enough to throw away or re-use if clean. Consider these and the pins as first choice over nails wherever nails are called out. Larry Schuler #500 Ch-10 lschuler@cellular.uscc.com From: SWrightFLY Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:36:17 EST Subject: Re: COZY: Re: GET HI with the PRICE VGs Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) I'm sure ya'll (I'm in Tennessee) have read the excellent article in the December issue of Sport Aviation page 84 on Jim Price's altitude record..... (way-to-go-JIM). I have gotten the information from Jim on the VGs he has used and plan to install them on my Stagger EZ. The one or two knots I may loose as a result, I feel is worth the gain in low speed performance. Steve Wright Wright Aircraft Works LLC Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:03:33 -0600 From: "Joseph H. Hart IV" Subject: Re: COZY: Re: GET HI with the PRICE VGs SWrightFLY wrote: > I'm sure ya'll (I'm in Tennessee) have read the excellent article in the > December issue of Sport Aviation page 84 on Jim Price's altitude record..... > (way-to-go-JIM). I have gotten the information from Jim on the VGs he has > used and plan to install them on my Stagger EZ. The one or two knots I may > loose as a result, I feel is worth the gain in low speed performance. > Steve Wright > Wright Aircraft Works LLC Steve: Read your post and a few minutes later read the following post on r.a.h.: Consider vortex generaters as installed on light aircraft. Advantages seem to be increased controllability at low speed and reduced stall speed. Disadvanatges seem to be increased drag. I'm curious if anyone has considered retractable vortex generators. They could be larger than normal vortex generators for extra increased lift at low speeds, and retracted for normal cruise drag. Also, how well do vortex generators work. I've always seen numbers like 3-7 mph reduced stall speed, and "a couple" of mph slower cruise. Can anyone comment on these numbers? -Much Thanks -Randy Anyone have any thoughts on implementing this? Would the slits in the wings cause any structural or aerodynamic problems? Would glassing the insides of the slots for the retracted vg's make up for any structural compromises caused by the slits in the wingskins? Thanks in advance. Jody Hart jodyhart@communique.net