From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: fuel gauges (fwd) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 10:39:29 EST Chris van Hoof wrote: >Saw Vance Atkinsons fuel gauges at Osh. 94. >They are in the headrest (pilots) and seem to work only when the plane is >parked nose down (I could be wrong) - at that stage i forgot to look >whether these gauges were in addition to the normal ones, or in place >off? any answers please. Headrest??? I don't think you're talking about Vance's fuel gauges! The ones I bought from Vance (for $35) are two pieces of plastic (one clear, one white) bonded together that fit in the rear fuselage in place of the standard fuel windows. The idea is that you cut out the standard window and flox and glass the plastic pieces in place. They are still in the rear fuselage sides, and the fuel is visible in the space between the two pieces of plastic. I've seen them in other COZY's, and they look and work a lot better than the standard windows (which are just the 4? layers of glass of the inside and outside fuselage side layups). I have no clue what you saw in the headrest. >has anyone installed automotive type floats with sender in their tanks, >so that this can be viewed on a instrument panel gauge? Keith Spreuer has done this on his MKIV, and I'm planning on doing this (as well as Vance's gauges - nothing like a belt and suspenders :-) ) too. The sender unit goes in the top of the strake under a removable cover right next to the fuselage where the large fillet is. The wires run in the fillet and then into the fuselage. This ensures that there are no fuel entries into the fuselage. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com by SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V5.1-4 #16063) with SMTP id <01IE9VQ5HPM4001JVE@SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:23:25 PST Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:22:51 -0800 From: hrogers@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Howard Rogers) Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges (fwd) >>has anyone installed automotive type floats with sender in their tanks, >>so that this can be viewed on a instrument panel gauge? > >Keith Spreuer has done this on his MKIV, and I'm planning on doing this >(as well as Vance's gauges - nothing like a belt and suspenders :-) ) >too. The sender unit goes in the top of the strake under a removable >cover right next to the fuselage where the large fillet is. The wires >run in the fillet and then into the fuselage. This ensures that there >are no fuel entries into the fuselage. > >-- >Marc J. Zeitlin I have taken the "belt and suspenders" route, on the Long EZ, as well. I never liked the idea of trying to look over your shoulder into the back seat, at night, either. I installed a pair of capacitence-type probes into the tanks, as well as a good sight-window in the back seat. Advantages over float-type installation: light weight. No moving parts. Length of probes can be trimmed to optimum length for the tank, then calibrated with a couple of built-in trim pots. I won't know how well they work, till I fly the bird, but I have heard good reports from a couple of other builders who have used them. I have yet to hear anything bad about this set up. They are available from Sky Sports. --Howard Rogers, 415-926-4052 hrogers@slac.stanford.edu From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges (fwd) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 12:14:27 EST Howard Rogers wrote; >......... I installed a pair of capacitence-type probes into >the tanks, as well as a good sight-window in the back seat. Advantages >over float-type installation: light weight. No moving parts. Length of >probes can be trimmed to optimum length for the tank, then calibrated with >a couple of built-in trim pots. You are absolutely correct - I meant to say that I would use capacitance senders rather than floats. They are also available from Wicks and ACS as packages with Westach dual fuel gauges. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:23:16 -0500 (EST) From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges In a message dated 97-01-16 09:32:49 EST, you write: << has anyone installed automotive type floats with sender in their tanks, so that this can be viewed on a instrument panel gauge? (just thinking of losing/opening the cap without knowing) >> I am at the strake building stage. Have installed the fuel gage from a Subaru Legacy vehicle. Sending unit is full submersed, mounted completely internal. Includes analog output for gage and and capacitive "low fuel" output also. Wires will pass thru my vent lines to exterior of tank. All of my engine (fuel) monitoring will be done by sending inputs to personal computer. No aspect of my installation will involve custom hardware or software. All involves work I've done in past. The real key is to make the computer smart. I'll have it recognize and respond to unusual fuel use rate, fuel reserve compared to projected flight duration, etc etc. If your airplane crashes, it will be likely be due to an oversight regarding fuel capacity. This approach will greatly reduce the likelyhood of these types of failures. My approach includes some redundancies not mentioned (ie I'm not computer dependant). I'd certainly recommend throwing a fuel sending unit into your tanks. Then you can eventually use computer monitoring, or just use a " low fuel" indicator on dash. Regards, -al Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:54:31 -0500 From: Mahan Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges AlWick@aol.com wrote: > > I am at the strake building stage. Have installed the fuel gage from a Subaru > Legacy vehicle. Sending unit is full submersed, mounted completely internal. > Includes analog output for gage and and capacitive "low fuel" output also. > *snip* Al, don't forget to build in some provision for removing the sender if it craps out. You DON'T want to cut a hole in your strake. Fred in Florida Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:57:53 -0500 (EST) From: CCady@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges I have some of these installed and the work pretty well. Be careful when trimming the probes that you leave the small plastic pieces inside the tube that keep the inner probe rod from touching the tube. The adjustment on mine seems very sensitive and hard to get just right. I embedded the metal mounting plate just under the longeron and have the probe going out thru the side into the top of the fuel tank and then bending down. I can remove the probe easily and with the gasket you don't get any fuel fumes. In a message dated 97-01-16 11:28:28 EST, you write: << I installed a pair of capacitence-type probes into the tanks, as well as a good sight-window in the back seat. Advantages over float-type installation: light weight. No moving parts. Length of probes can be trimmed to optimum length for the tank, then calibrated with a couple of built-in trim pots. I won't know how well they work, till I fly the bird, but I have heard good reports from a couple of other builders who have used them. >> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:12:49 -0800 From: Chris van Hoof Organization: C van Hoof - Architect Subject: COZY: fuel gauges Hi all, Saw Vance Atkinsons fuel gauges at Osh. 94. They are in the headrest (pilots) and seem to work only when the plane is parked nose down (I could be wrong) - at that stage i forgot to look whether these gauges were in addition to the normal ones, or in place off? any answers please. has anyone installed automotive type floats with sender in their tanks, so that this can be viewed on a instrument panel gauge? (just thinking of losing/opening the cap without knowing) Thanx for your replies (awaited :-)). chris #219 in chapter 08. Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:03:11 -0500 (EST) From: Allegro816@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges In a series of messages I read of people intending to use a fuel level sending unit in their tanks to monitor fuel usage. I would strongly suggest anyone spending time on this reconsider, or perhaps explain to me what I am missing. (And I have been known to miss things!) We (Allegro Avionics), have fuel flow monitors that will measure to a tenth of a gallon your fuel used over a typical flight. No errors are read as a result of fuel shift, and the speed and accuracy are orders of magnitude greater than any tank slosh reader. As a result, we can incorperate GPS data downloads that show your current waypoint and the fuel burn to reach it, and an audio alarm sounds if reserves fall below your preset comfort level. An in the tank level reading device may have some advantage, I just don't know what it is. I try to refrain from using the forum as a commercial platform, but I spoke up in this case because there is really a better way! (Also it's late and I am bored...)We also make an engine monitor system that has some unique features, including the above fuel flow capabilities built in, to a 2-1/4" gauge. This business has turned out to be a lot of fun, and I'd like to share the results with those of you who may be interested. For the benefit of those who are not I will shut up, and anyone wishing more propaganda can just E-mail me!! Robin du Bois/Cozy22AZ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:11:15 -0500 From: Phillip.Johnson@kan.lmcda.lmco.com (phillip johnson) Subject: RE: COZY: fuel gauges Chris van Hoof Wrote: > Saw Vance Atkinsons fuel gauges at Osh. 94. > They are in the headrest (pilots) and seem to work only when the > plane is parked nose down (I could be wrong) - at that stage i > forgot to look whether these gauges were in addition to the normal > ones, or in place off? any answers please. As I recall, the sight glasses that you are referring to, are the flow gauges for the oxygen system that Vance has in his aeroplane. His fuel gauges are in the standard position. Phillip Johnson Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 07:35:07 -0500 (EST) From: SBLANKDDS@aol.com Subject: COZY: fuel gauges >In response to the need for in tank gauges: The fuel consumption gauges are nice, but have one major flaw. They assume that the only fuel leaving goes through the fuel line. This does not account for leaking, or forgotton fuel caps and leaks that may occur in our birds. I will use Vances site gauges, and I plan to place a LED below and outside of the tank, to light the gauge at night. From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges (fwd) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 10:26:32 EST Hi Marc, If it's not inappropriate, (re: my business) could you copy this to the group? Thanks & a Prosperous '97 Regarding Fuel Probes: I have used capacitive fuel probes in several installations including Velocity, Cozy, Lancair and a Berkut. The probes are made by SkySports and are as simple as it gets! In all of the installations, the probes are inside the cabin area, (only the header in Lancair). None of the installations have leaked. All of the installations used the factory mounting hardware & recommendations with the only added effort being, in some cases, some silicone gasket sealant. If you are not familiar with these probes you should contact SkySports or me for further information (I can supply their products). I have a good handle on these applications as I manufacture and LED bar graph type fuel gauge (and fuel transfer system for Lancairs). My experience over the past several years with the probes & gauges has been very positive. I feel very comfortable in promoting these probes, but DO NOT feel that one should delete the sight glass! I can't see them without alot of trouble either, but they will be there!! Take Care & Safe Flying, Wayne Lanza -- _______________________________________________________________________ / Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com \ | Patient Monitoring Division (PMD) HP Telnet: 1-659-3421 | | Hewlett Packard Voice: 1-508-659-3421 | | 3000 Minuteman Road Fax: 1-508-685-5372 | | Andover, Ma. 01810-1099 | | Mail Stop: MS-460 WWW: http://www.ultranet.com/~marcz/ | |_____________________ http://www-msy-me.an.hp.com/~marcz/ | | (c) copyright 1997 \ (HP Internal ONLY) | \______________________\________________________________________________/ Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:40:53 -0500 (EST) From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges In a message dated 97-01-17 07:38:50 EST, you write: << The fuel consumption gauges are nice, but have one major flaw. They assume that the only fuel leaving goes through the fuel line. This does not account for leaking, or forgotton fuel caps and leaks that may occur in our birds. I will use Vances site gauges, and I plan to place a LED below and outside of the tank, to light the gauge at night. >> In my opinion leaks, fuel cap loss, etc. are among the best reasons to have the analog and capacitance type gage. Instead of hoping you will notice sudden loss of fuel, they WILL notice and tell you. Fuel sender at wrecking yard $5, Lite Bulb $5, and you have substantially reduced odds of fuel qty oversight. -al Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:07:30 -0500 From: Brimmer Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges I bought a fuel consumption indicator and it was very useful especially in the testing stage. For in flight and flight planning purposes you really want to know how much fuel you are using at different rpm settings. It will really reduce the pucker factor. >>In response to the need for in tank gauges: > >The fuel consumption gauges are nice, but have one major flaw. They assume >that the only fuel leaving goes through the fuel line. This does not account >for leaking, or forgotton fuel caps and leaks that may occur in our birds. > >I will use Vances site gauges, and I plan to place a LED below and outside >of the tank, to light the gauge at night. > > "Any one can build a plane that will last a lifetime." - stolen Ken Brimmer - brimmer@erols.com Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:31:00 -0500 (EST) From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges In a message dated 97-01-17 00:07:02 EST, you write: << In a series of messages I read of people intending to use a fuel level sending unit in their tanks to monitor fuel usage. I would strongly suggest anyone spending time on this reconsider, or perhaps explain to me what I am missing. >> Well, what are the main causes for fuel exhaustion? Probably pilot oversight. "I knew I had only 45 min of fuel, but tooling around the area on a sunny day I did'nt notice the time pass." Distracted by...? Flow monitoring sounds great, but I suspect it does not address the main causes. If your system included reserve qty monitoring, then I would consider your system the most valuable addition a person could make to their panel. Send me some info on your sys. regards -al by SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V5.1-4 #16063) with SMTP id <01IEBLGA0CWS001N4Q@SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:50:43 PST Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:50:13 -0800 From: hrogers@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Howard Rogers) Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges >In a series of messages I read of people intending to use a fuel level >sending unit in their tanks to monitor fuel usage. I would strongly suggest >anyone spending time on this reconsider, or perhaps explain to me what I am >missing. (And I have been known to miss things!) We (Allegro Avionics), have >fuel flow monitors that will measure to a tenth of a gallon your fuel used >over a typical flight. No errors are read as a result of fuel shift, and the >speed and accuracy are orders of magnitude greater than any tank slosh >reader. As a result, we can incorperate GPS data downloads that show your >current waypoint and the fuel burn to reach it, and an audio alarm sounds if >reserves fall below your preset comfort level. An in the tank level reading >device may have some advantage, I just don't know what it is. >I try to refrain from using the forum as a commercial platform, but I spoke >up in this case because there is really a better way! (Also it's late and I >am bored...)We also make an engine monitor system that has some unique >features, including the above fuel flow capabilities built in, to a 2-1/4" >gauge. This business has turned out to be a lot of fun, and I'd like to share >the results with those of you who may be interested. For the benefit of those >who are not I will shut up, and anyone wishing more propaganda can just >E-mail me!! >Robin du Bois/Cozy22AZ Robin, Though a fuel-flow/totalizer is a magnificent idea (thanks for the literature), and I definitely intend to have one in my aircraft (probably yours), it in no way substitutes for a fuel level indicator. If you attempt to get your bird inspected by the FAA, expect to flunk, unless positive indicators are installed. Obviously, it is hard to get an erroneous reading out of a sight tube, but with only a totalizer, a power loss would be sufficient to put a pilot completely in the dark about remaining fuel quantity. Or how about this scenario: You fueled your aircraft in the evening, entered the appropriate amount into your totalizer, and came back in the morning. In a hurry, you forgot to check your levels before departure. In the night, thieves siphoned one or both of your tanks dry. Believing your totalizer, you get a big surprise at a most inoppertune moment. Far fetched? It happened to a friend of mine. He misread his Cessna 140 wing-root gages during "preflight" (they were both wrapped all the way around the gage, against the "empty" peg, but a cursory look, and a mind that was already sure they said "full" played a trick on him). He was lucky. He made it back to the airport (just barely). When it comes to fuel management, the more belts and suspenders you have, the better, as long as nothing contributes to confusion, but a reliable level indicator is NOT optional. Howard Rogers A&P 2005148 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 00:57:34 -0500 (EST) From: Allegro816@aol.com Subject: COZY: Re fuel Gauge and keyboards! Thanks to the two dozen or so who replied to me on the subject of my crass commercial message (so I thought) regarding the Allegro engine monitor and fuel flow systems; all of you were very kind and encouraging. To those who requested info, sorrry for the delay, I will reply tommorrow as my keyboard is crapping out (too many mmmmms and rrrrs!) and Fed X is deliverring a new one in the morning! It seems those who want to use an in tank gauge have the intention of replacing the sight gauges, I did not initially understand this. Also I would under NO curcumstances recommend replacing the fuel level gauge whatever type it is with a fuel flow meter, as some thought I meant. You must have a good level gauge of some sort. I have had an inflight fuel cap loss on climbout in my Cozy, in my case only a few gallons were sucked out while the tank was very full (freshly topped), but who knows how different airplanes behave. Again, a gauge of any kind does not replace a preflight, which would have prevented the above incident. That is not the kind of excitment we need, and not what I meant about the business being a lot of fun! One of the best times I have had was flying my Cozy (after years of dreaming) to Mojave to deliver a gauge to Mike Melville at Scaled, and getting a guided tour from Mike of the Rutan skunk works. Aviation and homebuilding can really change your life, keep slugging! (Thanks, Mike.) I will reply to all in the morning. Robin du Bois Cozy 22AZ Crass commercialist, Allegro Avionics. Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 05:04:17 -0500 (EST) From: KSPREUER@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges (fwd) In a message dated 97-01-16 10:40:12 EST, you write: << Subj: COZY: fuel gauges (fwd) Date: 97-01-16 10:40:12 EST From: marcz@hpwarhw.an.hp.com (Marc J. Zeitlin) Sender: owner-cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com Reply-to: marcz@hpwarhw.an.hp.com (Marc J. Zeitlin) To: cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com (Cozy MK-IV Builders) Chris van Hoof wrote: >has anyone installed automotive type floats with sender in their tanks, >so that this can be viewed on a instrument panel gauge? >Keith Spreuer has done this on his MKIV, and I'm planning on doing this (as well as Vance's gauges - nothing like a belt and suspenders :-) ) too. The sender unit goes in the top of the strake under a removable cover right next to the fuselage where the large fillet is. The wires run in the fillet and then into the fuselage. This ensures that there >are no fuel entries into the fuselage. >From Keith: In my case I'm using the capacitive gages from Wicks. I put an aluminum plate in the top of the strake that the sender will screw on to. It will be inside the small fairing that goes between the strake and the rear windows. There will be an access cover in these fairings. The wire will go inside the fuselage and run along the longeron. They have a calibration adjustment. I expect them to be very acurate, we'll see. I also have the Vance Atkinson sight gauges in the standard location. Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 10:54:02 From: RSiebert1@gnn.com (Reid Edward Siebert) Subject: Re: COZY: fuel gauges Howard Rogers wrote: > Though a fuel-flow/totalizer is a magnificent idea (thanks for the >literature), and I definitely intend to have one in my aircraft (probably >yours), it in no way substitutes for a fuel level indicator. If you >attempt to get your bird inspected by the FAA, expect to flunk, unless >positive indicators are installed. I agree with Howard, every aircraft is required to have certain instruments on board, such as tachometer, oil pressure indicator, and fuel quantity gauge. My Cozy has the 24-inch bendable capacitance probes (from Wicks) that I cut down to 13 inches. They mount inside the cabin, on the wall section between the rear seat back, and the baggage compartments. No, I don't have the sight gauges. You can buy capacitance probes that are powered by small batteries, rather than ship's power, if you don't trust your electrical system. But I figure having two main batteries onboard is enough redundancy. If you want to mount your probes like this, plan for them early-on, because you have to modify your fuselage side walls to include a recessed hole for each of them, and their mounting plates. Reid Siebert A&P 340482952 From: "astrong" Subject: COZY: Re, strips on fuel gauge! Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:24:00 -0800 Four years ago when I first fueled my three place I used strips of electrical tape on the out side of the gauge to mark the levels in five gallon increments as I filled up the tanks, then locked the strips in place with epoxy. Four years later the strips are still there. Pre-marking the gauge does not guarantee the fuel level will match the mark. Alex A.R.Strong Homepage "http://www.canard.com/trim" Date: Fri, 5 Dec 97 7:47:08 EST From: "Nick J Ugolini" Subject: COZY: Printed fuel gauge strips >>Four years ago when I first fueled my three place I used strips of electrical tape on the out side of the gauge to mark the levels in five gallon increments as I filled up the tanks, then locked the strips in place with epoxy<< I used my computer to print my fuel gage strips. First I drained the fuel from my LongEZ, I took a piece of masking tape and marked one gal increments on it while fueling. Then I placed a match mark on the tape and the gage. Took the tape off, and brought it home. Next using a computer spread sheet, print the numbers vertically (rows) and the tack marks in two columns. I varied the height of the rows until the tack marks matched the marks I placed on the tape. Took a couple of iterations. Once the tape and the printed strips were exactly the same, I transferred the match marks, took the strip to the plane, matched the marks, then glued in into place with clear water based polyurethane. Put a couple of coats of urethane on it and they become part of the plane. It looks really good and you can tell to the gal or .5 gal exactly what is in your tank.