Date: Fri, 06 Jun 97 11:07:07 EST From: "KEN SARGENT" Subject: COZY: UV Light and Weathering Testing To those builders looking at upholstery, instrument panel lettering, final finish, and painting, and you are curious as to how those materials might look when exposed to years of UV and weathering. I can include samples you send me in testing I am currently doing. I only ask that you describe the material sample carefully so we can include the results in our own reference book. If you have a TWO business card size samples or smaller please send (with SASE if you want results back) to: Ken Sargent Applied Technologies Dept 748 (407) 824 7593 Walt Disney World Co. 1274 West Facilities Way Lake Buena Vista, FL 32830 I need two samples to keep one as a control for comparison. Fully cure your sample. If you are looking at your final paint system I would recommend a sample with your laminate, filler, primer, and topcoat system to simulate your plane exterior as much as possible. Samples do get wet, and you should seal the edges of your sample. You will see osmotic blistering if you do not use the right combination of materials. (see Nat's plans) One month in the machine equals one year of Florida full sun expose with morning dew burn off. This is not a problem since our machine is running kind of empty right now. Ken Sargent ken_sargent@wda.disney.com Cozy #555 no where near final finish and upolstery. Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:44:44 -0400 From: Jim Hocut Subject: COZY: Ch 13 - Painting nose interior ? What's everyone doing as far as painting the nooks and crannies, such as the area where the nose gear retract mechanism mounts? Just putting in the retract mechanism and not worrying about it, painting before installing the mechanism, removing everything when it comes time to go to the paint shop, ...? Jim Hocut jhocut@mindspring.com From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Ch 13 - Painting nose interior ? (fwd) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 14:29:07 EDT Jim Hocut asks; >What's everyone doing as far as painting the nooks and crannies, >such as the area where the nose gear retract mechanism mounts? Personally, I wasn't planning on painting anything internal that's forward of the Instrument Panel, or in the rear behind the battery compartment cover. I'm also not planning on painting the inside of the armrests or center section consoles. Basically, I'm not going to paint anything that isn't easily visible by a passenger, or isn't exposed to UV from the sun. It's just extra weight, and if no-one's going to see it (except me, when I do maintenance), why bother with the expense, time, trouble, and weight? I don't expect people to be sticking their heads up in the leg holes on a regular basis, anyway, and if they do, seeing non-painted surfaces [in the dark] will be the least of their troubles) :-). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #17060) with SMTP id <01IK85816M0W9GE8H0@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:24:38 EST Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:22:17 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Ch 13 - Painting nose interior ? Organization: AEROCAD INC. Jim Hocut wrote: > What's everyone doing as far as painting the nooks and crannies, > such as the area where the nose gear retract mechanism mounts? > Just putting in the retract mechanism and not worrying about it, > painting before installing the mechanism, removing everything when > it comes time to go to the paint shop, ...? Jim, on my Cozy 3, I painted everything from the nose to the inside roots of the wings. What a waist of time! On the one that I now fly, only the parts that you can see were painted. No paint in the nose at all. If your trying for Grand Champion, figure on doing all the details from nose to tail. This is why the grands always weigh more then they should. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. From: AlWick@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:37:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: COZY: Paint color A few months ago we discussed whether it is safe to paint canard with a non-white color. At that time it appeared the consensus was that the sky would fall if another color was chosen. Had the chance to talk to a yellow LE owner. Two years, 400 hours later, been in hot places, and no sign of any problem. He explained that he knows of quite a few yellow canards. Reports that none have problems. Looks like yellow is a realistic option. FWIW. -al From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Paint color (fwd) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 17:00:09 EDT Al Wick wrote: >A few months ago we discussed whether it is safe to paint canard with a >non-white color. At that time it appeared the consensus was that the sky >would fall if another color was chosen. I think it was earthquakes and plagues, not falling sky :-). >Had the chance to talk to a yellow LE owner. Two years, 400 hours later, been >in hot places, and no sign of any problem. He explained that he knows of >quite a few yellow canards. Reports that none have problems. It would be interesting to know if these aircraft had been post-cured (prior to exposure to the Arizona sun, which would post cure them too for sure :-) ). In the graph in the COZY plans, yellow is listed (not surprisingly) as being next best to white as far as not getting hot (maybe a 10 degree F difference), so I can certainly believe that post-cured planes would probably have few problems with high temperatures even if they're yellow. >Looks like yellow is a realistic option. FWIW. Sure. OTOH (On The Other Hand) since there's no performance gain (that I know of) with a color other than white, I'm not sure that I would take any chance whatsoever of doing permanent damage to the structure of my airplane just for cosmetic reasons, especially if I lived in the south, southwest, or CA. Now, if it was 10 kts faster ........... :-). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:03:22 +0000 From: Bulent Aliev Organization: American Yacht Sales, Inc. Subject: Re: COZY: Paint color You are right, Yellow was my first choice. The color - temperature tests showed that temp. Difference is minimal. Buly From: "Krasa-1, Paul" Subject: COZY: How much Paint? Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:13:22 -0400 The question about how much paint it takes was disscussed awhile back. The answer is 3 gallons of mixed paint to cover a Long EZ, so add alittle more and you'll have enough for a Cozy. The paint I used is Acrilic Enamel with "wet look" catalyst. Paul From: wilhelmson@scra.org Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:21:30 -0400 Subject: Re: COZY: How much Paint? I use a light color primer and white Imron and 1.5 gallons is all that I used. The 3 gallons must be so that the touch ups and redos will match color. If you are painting white over dark primer it can take 50% more to get good coverage. Jack Wilhelmson Cozy N711CZ plans #1 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:57:31 -0700 From: C van Hoof Organization: Architect Subject: Re: COZY: Paint color Hi All &AlWick > non-white color. Just to add - Rutan just finished his round the world trip in the oldest canard (Proof of plans) and its blue. Check it out at Osh. Have fun. chris #219 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:38:49 -0400 From: Chuck & Cheryl Organization: InfiNet Subject: COZY: non-white color Al and All A friend of mine Jack Fehling has a beautiful Bright Yellow VariEze that has over 1000 hrs on it. He lives in south Florida. He has had no problems with heat. I have a silver matelic paint job but I only have 170 hrs on it no problems, I also live in Fl. I don't think you have to worry about color unless you decided to paint it dark blue or any dark color. PS: Did you get your roof done :-). Chuck Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:14:19 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: Spot Putty ? Is there a product out there that you may have used in finishing to fill small holes prior to priming? Thanks, Eric From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: COZY: Spot Putty ? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:07:35 MDT I have a friend with the best finish I've ever seen on a LongEZ. (He recently won 'best homebuilt' at the Rocky Mountain EAA Regional Fly In and Grand Champion at Jackpot). His plane is painted with Sterling which I believe is some sort of marine paint. There was absolutely no post finishing work done on it and it is beautiful. His method for dealing with pin holes was to apply the first coat of primer with a squeegy and then sand if off. I've never tried this, but he swears he had no pin holes and if his result is any indication it must work great. > Is there a product out there that you may have used in finishing to fill > small holes prior to priming? > > Thanks, > > Eric > by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #23426) with SMTP id <01ILI8NIQ2I28ZTJDI@InfoAve.Net> for canard-aviators@canard.com; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:19:04 EST Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:13:22 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: [canard-aviators] Organization: AEROCAD INC. Subject: [canard-aviators] [The Canard Aviators's Mailing list] Eric Westland wrote: > > [The Canard Aviators's Mailing list] > Is there a product out there that you may have used in finishing to fill > small holes prior to priming? Eric, Cab-A-Sil is the best additive to mixed epoxy resin that will get rid of the dad blasted, mini pitching, darn pin holes. I will leave the good words for you later. Never use primer, polyester spot putty to remove the pin holes. Shrink back will haunt you later in life. Epoxy is the best item because it bonds and it will not shrink. I micro fill first. Sand until the shape is as close as you can get. I use SuperFil for secondary fill work because it blends better then micro fill on micro. Then mix cab-a-sil with resin and spread leaving as little excess as possible. Sift micro balloons on it and let cure. Sand with 80 - 120 grit and then prim for paint. Sand, sand, sand and then let someone else paint! -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com Phone/ fax (call first): 910-961-2238 AeroCad: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To remove yourself from this list, send email to: majordomo@canard.com and put the following as the very first thing in your message body: unsubscribe canard-aviators you@youremail.com If you have problems, please email support@canard.com For more information visit: http://www.canard.com by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-7 #23426) with SMTP id <01ILJ2GYEB4I9184TL@InfoAve.Net> for canard-aviators@canard.com; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:32:47 EST Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:26:46 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: [canard-aviators] Organization: AEROCAD INC. Subject: [canard-aviators] [The Canard Aviators's Mailing list] sleeper@usinternet.com wrote: > [The Canard Aviators's Mailing list] > Jeff Russell wrote that spot putties should not be used. 3M makes three > spot putties, a red, a blue and a green. These have different formulations > other than color. Why wouldn't one or the other of these be ok for filling > pin holes if there is nothing on top of it but the primer. You can always break rules but in the long run you will pay for what you got. Epoxy can go on polyester but should never be reversed. I used this type under primer and after 5 years it bit me on the rear :-) -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com Phone/ fax (call first): 910-961-2238 AeroCad: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To remove yourself from this list, send email to: majordomo@canard.com and put the following as the very first thing in your message body: unsubscribe canard-aviators you@youremail.com If you have problems, please email support@canard.com For more information visit: http://www.canard.com From: wkasty@ix.netcom.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:13:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: COZY: Contouring While waiting for my large Aircraft Spruce order via UPS or whoever, I started filling my canard. I picked up some West Systems 105/206 with the Microlite filler. In the finishing chapter Nat says to paint epoxy onto the surface and then lump on dry micro. I find that the epoxy which is painted on wets out the dry micro too much. Does anyone have any hard-learned techniques for filling and sanding? Also, is wet sanding an OK method to keep down the dust? Bill Kastenholz wkasty@ix.netcom.com CozyMKIV 536 by m12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NNM00927; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:19:13 EDT Subject: Re: COZY: Contouring From: cozybldr@juno.com (Paul T Stowitts) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:19:13 EDT On Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:13:21 -0500 (CDT) wkasty@ix.netcom.com writes: > While waiting for my large Aircraft Spruce order via >UPS or whoever, I started filling my canard. I picked up >some West Systems 105/206 with the Microlite filler. >In the finishing chapter Nat says to paint epoxy onto the >surface and then lump on dry micro. I find that the epoxy >which is painted on wets out the dry micro too much. Does >anyone have any hard-learned techniques for filling and >sanding? > Also, is wet sanding an OK method to keep down the dust? > >Bill Kastenholz >wkasty@ix.netcom.com >CozyMKIV 536 > > Bill, I found the same thing so I don't paint epoxy on. I just micro it and have had no problems. The technique I use to apply micro is to use a tongue depressor and make small (4-5") swipes across the surface. I make one pass, keeping the pressure at the tip of the depressor, then I make my next pass about halfway down the first, and so on. I never go over the same pass twice as that just pulls the existing micro off. This method allows me to put on small amounts of micro (for less sanding) in a very quick fashion. As for the wet sanding, I haven't tried it as you need fairly coarse sandpaper to remove the excess micro. Hope this helps. Paul Stowitts Cozy Mark IV #200 Engine mount went on yesterday. Preparing for the inside canopy layup. Firewall is next and then the strakes. Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:07:15 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: COZY: Contouring wkasty@ix.netcom.com wrote: > . > In the finishing chapter Nat says to paint epoxy onto the > surface and then lump on dry micro. I find that the epoxy > which is painted on wets out the dry micro too much. Does > anyone have any hard-learned techniques for filling and > sanding? > I'm spraying primer now and can tell you there are no shortcuts to contouring, but here are a few tips. First and most important, get a copy of Ken Miller's excellent finishing article from the Central States Newsletter, Issue # 26, April 1992. It takes you from start to finish on how to do it right. Second, do the alchohol thing (refer to the archives for a complete discusion). It lets you add a little more micro which makes the filler lighter and easier to sand. The short answer to your original question is to wet out the surface first with epoxy, then squeegee it all off and then try to wipe off any more with paper towels. Scott paper make a great "cloth-like" paper towel that holds together well for this. Then let it get a little tacky and spread on the west. If you were not going to wet it out first, then the filler would need to be wetter to stick (heavier and harder to sand). Mixing the filler dry/light takes extra time to mix and spread, but after a while you just get used to doing it that way. I spoke with another builder not too long ago that was complaining that he could not keep his filler from running on vertical surfaces! Way too wet/heavy, but he was almost done. Read Ken's article, it's about as good a source for the way to do it right as there is. Eric Westland Mukilteo, WA From: "Frank" Subject: Re: COZY: Contouring Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:57:10 -0400 ---------- > From: Paul T Stowitts > To: cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com > Subject: Re: COZY: Contouring > Date: Sunday, August 10, 1997 1:19 PM > In refrance to your question on wet sanding I would say no ! I tried it what a mess!! The water soaks in to the pinholes you cant even see, you think it is dry ,boooooy! are you in for a surprize my plane kept dripping little beads of sweat for a week!!! finely had to raise the temp to 85 deg and use a hair dryer to get the whater out frum under the epoxy I will nevver do it again. frank johanson From: SBLANKDDS@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:50:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: COZY: Cozy - Re: Finishing tips >>>>Regarding Bill K. posting about finishing: I have been using old epoxy brushes (dry and hard bristles) and stippling the wet epoxy into the clean surface, not brushing it on. Goal is to get minimal resin to wet surface. This can also be done a few hours ahead of applying the dry micro to avoid the pure epoxy edges...Alternate is to hire someone else!!!! I just did the bottom while adding the speed brake. It didn'tlook so big before i started mixing micro.....Also, go buy the kids some ice cream in the big plastic 1-2 gallon bucket. It is a great easily closed storage unit for the micro, and the kids like their job of getting rid of the ice cream !!! Steve Blank Cozy Mark IV #36 sblankdds@aol.com Port St Lucie, Florida web -----> Cozy Mark IV From: "Krasa-1, Paul" Subject: RE: COZY: Cozy - Re: Finishing tips Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:17:31 -0400 You will save alot of time and filler if you rub dry micro into the surface when you finish the layup. The advantage is two fold: it helps fill the weave in areas you could never sand, and micro is easier to sand then the cured glass/epoxy. Paul Krasa Long EZ 214LP Moving to VA next weekend. Praying that nothing on the plane gets damaged. >---------- >From: SBLANKDDS@aol.com[SMTP:SBLANKDDS@aol.com] >Sent: Sunday, August 10, 1997 10:50 PM >To: cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com >Subject: COZY: Cozy - Re: Finishing tips > >>>>>Regarding Bill K. posting about finishing: > > I have been using old epoxy brushes (dry and hard bristles) and stippling >the wet epoxy into the clean surface, not brushing it on. Goal is to get >minimal resin to wet surface. This can also be done a few hours ahead of >applying the dry micro to avoid the pure epoxy edges...Alternate is to hire >someone else!!!! I just did the bottom while adding the speed brake. It >didn'tlook so big before i started mixing micro.....Also, go buy the kids >some ice cream in the big plastic 1-2 gallon bucket. It is a great easily >closed storage unit for the micro, and the kids like their job of getting rid >of the ice cream !!! > >Steve Blank Cozy Mark IV #36 sblankdds@aol.com >Port St Lucie, Florida >web -----> Cozy Mark >IV > > From: MISTER@neesnet.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 10:16:38 EST Subject: Re: COZY: Contouring Bill Kastenholtz asked: "I find that the epoxy which is painted on wets out the dry micro too much. Does anyone have any hard-learned techniques for filling and sanding?" 1. I liked using the West 410 Microlight filler. I originally thought it might be too soft but seems to be fine now after a year or so. I think I would use it again. 2. I found the same thing Bill did when using dry micro. Best technique I found was to squeegee veerry thin coat of pure epoxy on the surface area to be microed then glop the micro on and squeegee smooth ONCE. I found that if you attempted to work the dry micro at all it would mess up and fall or pull off very readily. (Didn't experience this with 410 as it went on fairly wet). 3. It was pretty much fill, sand, fill sand, fill sand, etc. You get the picture. Bob Misterka N342RM From: Mark Beduhn Subject: COZY: FW: Paint for Cozy MK IV Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:02:05 -0500 ---------- Cozy Builders, I just finished painting my MK IV, and recall someone asking how much = paint it would take. I finished the plane with Dupont's base/clear = system using a HVLP gun (70-80% transfer efficiency vs 35-45% for a = standard high pressure gun). I used 2 1/2 gallons sanding primer = (sanded most of it off I hope). Then used 1 1/4 gallons of color = (diluted 50/50 to make a total of 2 1/2 gallons). After the color = dried I used 1 1/2 gallons of clear coat (mixed 4 parts clear to 1 part = catalyst). This paint system looks great and is easy to repair. Don't = forget...if you use a standard spray system you will use more materials. I figure that I saved around $300 in primer/paint and clear coat by = using a HVLP system and the reduction in overspray was dramatic! If you = want a good looking paint job, don't use cheap spray equipment. The = $300 savings in paint went a long way toward the cost of the HVLP = system. Hope this helps someone. Mark Beduhn Cozy IV N494CZ soon to be flying!!! From: Lee Devlin Subject: COZY: Painting/HVLP systems Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 17:50:57 MDT I took an autobody class at the local community college last year to do some restoration work on my Piper Colt. I learned a lot about spray painting and was surprised to see that all the guns had HVLP embossed on them. Previously, I had assumed that HVLP sytems required the turbine-type compressors like Croix making them expensive for homebuilders who probably already have invested in a shop compressor. However, these guns looked and worked exactly like conventional guns except that they generated a lot less overspray. Cost was in the $300-$400 range, which is about twice the cost of a conventional high quality spray gun but with materials costing $100-200/gallon it can pay for itself quickly. Some states are mandating HVLP guns in autobody shops to reduce volatile organic emissions. I also enjoyed using the base/clear process which is what all the autobody shops are using. Basically, the color coat goes on easy like primer and then the clear flows very nicely and gives you the gloss without as much tendency to run or sag like single stage processes. Lee Devlin LongEZ 36MX Cozy MKIV under construction Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:10:43 -0600 From: pilot@xmission.com (Dave Chapman) Subject: COZY: Re: finishing tips Hello all, I have found that using peel ply over the layer of micro makes spreading the micro very eze. The procedure I use is: 1. prep the glass. sand if necessary (all my glass has been peel plied) 2. squeege on pure epoxy. press hard to remove all the excess 3. mix micro and smear on surface 4. put peel ply on and squeege smooth. the peel ply prevents the micro from rolling up and allows you sto control the thickness. 5. sand like a fool! I debated using west system, but have been using safety poxy II because I feel the west is too soft, and with the safety poxy I am sure to have a 100% compatable material when it comes to chemical bond, elasticity, and so forth. This is probably not necessary at all but it makes me feel better, becides I already have the safety poxy! Only drawback is that it makes the sanding harder. Dave Dave Chapman (Pilot@xmission.com) "This is USHGA #5742 a spiritual calling to Park City, Utah set one's soul free by flight...." (801) 647-0319 http://www.xmission.com/~pilot Cozy 3 on gear, with the engine on, in other words, 80% done and 80% to go... ***************************************************************************** Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:33:49 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: Re: Paint for Mark IV Mark Beduhn wrote: > I figure that I saved around $300 in primer/paint and clear coat by = > using a HVLP system and the reduction in overspray was dramatic! If you = > want a good looking paint job, don't use cheap spray equipment. I bought my paint gun a year ago and got a gravity feed Sharpe HVLP for about $200 at my local NAPA store. It came well recommended by an aquaintance that had done a lot of painting. It's well made and hooks up to a regular air compressor. They have a web site and can tell you just what size tip to get if you know what kind of paint you are going to use. Mine is 1.6 mm. Not wanting to destroy it with the thick primer (PPG K200) that sticks to everything, I bought a cheap suction feed gun (non-hvlp) just for the primer. It had a hard time sucking it up unless I really opened up the regulator and wasted a lot of paint as Mark wrote. So I tried to find a gravity feed HVLP cheap or even a 2.2 mm tip for my Sharpe ($90) but had no luck and did not want to spend $90 if I did not have to, so I decided to try to shoot one batch of primer with my good gun. It ended up working just fine for the primer although I did need to add a little more reducer. At $100 a gallon, it's nice to see it going on the plane even though it ends up on the floor later :-). The gun cleans well too as it is very simple mechanically. I can't say if it's a great gun for the finish coat yet as I have not tried it, but I doubt the limitations in my painting will be due to the gun :-). Eric From: Mark Beduhn Subject: COZY: RE: Paint? Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:42:43 -0500 ---------- From: Eric Westland[SMTP:EWestland@premier1.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 1:34 AM To: Mark Beduhn Subject: Paint? Mark, Did you paint your plane in pieces or all at once? You may recall a discussion of this earlier and since mine is in primer upside down, I must decide soon. Thanks, Eric Yes I recall the discussion. I took Vance Atkinson's advice and = painted the plane in pieces. Here are the sections I painted: 1) Complete fuselage assembly, (canard installed without elevator). = This was painted on its gear right side up. To paint the bottom I used = an automotive creeper and did it on my back (my spray system uses a 2 = quart cup and hoses). This probably couldn't be done with a standard = spray gun with an attached 1 quart cup. 2) Wings, winglets and rudders supported with leading edges of wings = and winglets facing up. The reason the rudders were attached was = because I wanted the contrasting color on my lower winglets to = transition smoothly to the rudders. If they were painted white, I would = have done the rudders separately (like the ailerons). 3) Ailerons. 4) Elevator. 5) Spinner. 6) Wheel pants. If I had to do it over again I would do it the same way. I know there = is no way I would have the stamina to paint the entire plane at once. I = would estimate that a good job would take 24 hours straight. Also, I = think over spray getting on previously painted surfaces would be a = problem. Hope this helps Mark Beduhn Cozy IV N494CZ Waiting for a critical part (UPS) before I can run the = engine. From: wilhelmson@scra.org Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:59:44 -0400 Subject: Re: COZY: FW: Paint for Cozy MK IV Mark: 1. What specific dupont products did you use? Imron? acrylic? What type of primer? urethane? acrylic? Spray gun brand and model? Thanks for the info? Jack Wilhelmson N711CZ From: Mark Beduhn Subject: RE: COZY: FW: Paint for Cozy MK IV Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 07:57:44 -0500 =0D----------=0D=0DMark:=0D 1. What specific dupont products = did you use?=0D Imron? acrylic? What type of primer? urethane?=0D = acrylic?=20 =0D Jack Wilhelmson N711CZ=0D=0DJack:=0D=0DI was told by = several painting experts that the easiest way to get a beautiful finish = was to use Dupont's(r) ChromaBase system. They said that Imron was = also good, but is is harder to apply and difficult to make repairs look = good. Given this info I used the ChromaBase system. It consists of 3 = steps: =0D=0D1) Sanding primer=0D2) Color coat=0D3) Clear = coat=0D=0DI used 2 Different primers. One was yellow (#1120S) and the = other was gray (I forgot the part #). They are mixed 4 parts primer, 1 = part activator (#1125S) and 2-4 parts thinner (1135S). Most of the time = I thinned with 4 parts thinner so it would spray smoothly. This primer = cures quickly and sands great. I used the gray first, and then the = yellow. This helped me when I was sanding to keep from going through to = the glass. The gray is also a good UV blocker. Note: any unused primer = must be discarded.=0D=0DI painted my plane with 5 coats of color (very = thin). I used the brightest white that I could get (ChromaBase 801K). = It is mixed 1:1 with 7185S thinner. This is the High temp thinner, they = have lower temp thinners but I don't have the part #'s. After thinned, = the paint has a very low viscosity and sprays very easily. It is mostly = volatiles, so very little weight is left on the plane. It dries to a = dull matte finish. After 3-5 thin coats have been applied and the = surface is dull (has flashed), the clear coat can be applied. If you = don't apply the clear coat within 24 hours, the entire surface must be = scratched with an abrasive pad (3M scotchbrite or equivalent). This = give the clear coat a good bond.=0D=0DThe clear coat is mixed 4 parts = clear to 1 part activator. It is not thinned. Any material left over = must be discarded. Mist on the first coat and let it flash. Then the = 2nd coat can be applied thick enough to flow without running. You can = put on 2 or 3 coats. I decided to put on three coats and sand the last = one off with very fine paper, then polish. This eliminated dust, bugs, = orange peel and overspray from the surface of the paint. I figured that = I had already put in 2000+ hours, so another 20 or so wouldn't kill me. = The clear coat a polyurethane material and sands and polishes very well. = If you do get a run, let it dry, sand it off with 400 -600 grit = (carefully) then spray a little more clear over it, or polish it out. I = found that spraying a light coat of clear sealed the scratches well, = then I sanded the overspray off with 1000 grit.=0D=0DWell...that's about = all I know. I'm not a painting expert, but I found this system to be = easy to use, and gave me a finish that I am proud of.=0D=0D=0DMark = Beduhn=0DN494CZ =0D=0D=0D Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:17:58 -0400 From: bil kleb Organization: NASA Langley Research Center Subject: Re: COZY: Bondo Bulent wrote: > > In any case looks like a bad idea using Bondo for finishing. read the plans, yet again ;) i think i'm at least on read #20 for some sections... the first part of chap 25 (finishing), "[t]he material commonly used on automobiles, bondo, is a filled polyester and is _not_ recommended because it is heavy, and does not bond well to fiberglass." later, yet another warning is issued: The polyester fillers are the cheapest. They are fast curing and sand well. Unfortunately, however, they do not bond well to fiberglass, and you might find your paint job blistering and/or peeling in a year or two. Polyester fillers are _not_ recommended, because they do not adhere well. as the '96 `finishin' archives point out, i also might be worthwhile to get ahold of the finishing article by ken miller in issue #26 (oct 92?) central states newsletter. -- bil Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:53:00 -0500 From: Bulent Subject: COZY: Bondo Hi all, I would like to bring to everybody's attention that many builders take the short cut on finishing their planes and use Bondo as fairing material. I have seen personally many of them. The problem is that for some reason with time Bondo starts to separate from the Epoxy or starts cracking. Fellow Cozy builder used Bondo on the nose of his plane and six months later was able to scrape it off with putty knife. He opted to cut the whole nose section and rebuild it. On the weekend I observed a KR-2 builder scraping Bondo with putty knife of his wings. Some people are speculating that Bondo absorbs moisture? In any case looks like a bad idea using Bondo for finishing. Best Regards; Bulent Cozy MK-IV (Wide Body) From: wilhelmson@scra.org Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:52:34 -0400 Subject: Re: COZY: Bondo The facts are that any type of polyester (bondo is polyester, featherfil is polyester) will draw moisture through the urethane paint film and cause lifting of the paint. How does it do this? It does it by osmosis. Exterior urethane is designed to allow water vapor to pass through. In fact other solvents will also pass through. Never wipe urethane with acetone or other solvents if the primer is not epoxy or urethane. The use of acrylic primers and fillers (dupont 131 and autobody spot puttys are arcylics) under urethane enamels is also a combination that will eventually fail. The added cost of epoxy or urethane primers and fillers is money well spent. Refinishing a aircraft that has been finished with the wrong materials is twice as much work as finishing a new aircraft. Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:44:50 -0700 From: "LCDR James D. Newman" Organization: INFINITY Aerospace Subject: COZY: Re: Bondo Hi Bulent and All, >I would like to bring to everybody's attention that many builders take the short cut on finishing their planes and use Bondo as fairing material.< Grove Aircraft, other custom kit builders, Formula 1 Racers, us, use a very light weight product called Poly-Fair F-26 for filling and contouring - it's already mixed with micro balloons, smears like frosting and is set off with MEKP. We all get it from Diversified Materials (800) 245-3053 (619) 464-4111 (619) 464-4186 FAX FWIW. Infinity's Forever, JD Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:41:04 +0200 From: blecoq Subject: COZY: Finding a source for primers Hello to everybody on the Net. This my first message to the whole group .I registered a week or two ago and am happy to see lots of information coming by. My Cozy MarkIV (N=B0 162) is at the finishing stage. I am building in the Paris area an hope to fly next year my plane. I am presently doing a very fine contouring using 100 grit sand paper.I still have the problem of the pinholes to solve up. For that I am still looking for an equivalent for Sterling U1761 and U 1762 that can be found in Europe. I am also looking for an equivalent for Zolatone interior paint . Has anybody a better idea than those primers . Allow me to use this Net to say hello to Cozy builders living in Europe that I would not know. Hi to everybody Beno=EEt LECOQ. (You can call me Ben on the net; that was the nickname I was given when I was in the States) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:56:53 -0400 From: wilhelmson@scra.org Subject: Re: COZY: Finding a source for primers Dupont "URO" is a urethane primer used under IMRON. It is high build sanding primer. I have three years outside on a Imron finish with no problems. Dupont products are sold in Europe I think. Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 19:48:45 -0400 From: David Domeier Subject: COZY: Pin Hole Hell As per a suggestion from Rego in South Africa, I post my recent descent into hell re pin holes. Rego, re "Happy spraying...What does STL stand for?" STL = St. Louis, Missouri. RSA = ? I have assumed it means Republic of South Africa. Incidently, I think I've discovered a new method of killing pin holes. My cowling from Feather Lite had millions of microscopic holes and would not fill with primer, cab-o-sil, or spotting putty. Cab-o-sil and spotting putty would cover them but not fill them I discovered when sanding smooth. A local auto/airplane paint specialist told me he uses a rubber glove when spraying primer and massages the primer into pin holes. I first thought how can that work, it will leave a mess on the surface. But out desparation, I tried it. I am using Dupont 2K water borne primer which sets up very fast. I put on a plastic glove, the same ones I use for lay ups, and with spray gun in one hand and glove in another, launched a major attack on the enemy. With my fingers I swirled the wet primer in a circle motion over the holes and guess what, they filled in. By the time I finished all pin holes were gone but the surface looked like some small creature had been doing wheely's here and there, and I figured, oh well, I've sanded it down three times already, so what's one more time. At least the pin holes are gone. Guess what? When I returned to inspect some 24 hours later, the primer had smoothed itself out during the cure and there is very little sanding to do. I am delighted to have finally conquered the enemy. dd From: "McElhoe, Bruce" Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Bondo Date: Thu, 02 Oct 97 07:46:00 HST Be careful using polyester resins over epoxy where the humidity is high. Several EZ builders here in Hawaii had to remove all their paint and polyester fairing a few months after completion. ( Very disappointing - one had a fabulous hand-rubbed lacquer finish. ) The polyester resin (a product called Featherfill) turned to jelly as it absorbed moisture from the air. I faired with West epoxy and microballons with good results. I tried Sterling over that and decided it was unnecessary and too heavy. I covered the fairing directly with primer. While the first coat was still wet I went around and rubbed the pinholes with my finger. This was the biggest paint job I'd ever done and I was worried, but it came out beautiful. Bruce McElhoe L-EZ N64MC ------- LCDR James D. Newman wrote: > > Grove Aircraft, other custom kit builders, Formula 1 Racers, us, use a > very light weight product called Poly-Fair F-26 for filling and > contouring - it's already mixed with micro balloons, smears like > frosting and is set off with MEKP. > JD and Others, Any experience spreading Poly-Fair over West filler? I'm wondering how well it will "stick" and if it needs to wetted first with pure epoxy to do so. Thanks, Eric Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 07:12:07 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Bondo LCDR James D. Newman wrote: > > Grove Aircraft, other custom kit builders, Formula 1 Racers, us, use a > very light weight product called Poly-Fair F-26 for filling and > contouring - it's already mixed with micro balloons, smears like > frosting and is set off with MEKP. > JD and Others, Any experience spreading Poly-Fair over West filler? I'm wondering how well it will "stick" and if it needs to wetted first with pure epoxy to do so. Thanks, Eric From: wilhelmson@scra.org Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:39:12 -0400 Subject: Re[2]: COZY: Re: Bondo Be very careful about using polyester materials over epoxy or urethane. They will stick for a while and then let go causing paint bubbles. Featherlite was polyester and was reccomended by Rutan in the early days. It caused me and many others thousands of manhrs of hard work and expense. You cannot trust just anyone when it comes to paint and filler information on epoxy fiberglass airplanes. Dupont used to reccomend 131 primer under Imron. It also will lift after a few months or even years. The problem is that fiberglass airplanes go through a lot of environmental conditions that are not like anything else. Temperature changes cause expansion and contraction greater than metals. Rapid pressure changes, 200mph rain and wind, etc. This may sound like a lecture but I hate see my fellow builders make the same mistakes I made. Jack Wilhelmson N711CZ by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-8 #23426) with SMTP id <01IOC0KOJRTS908V51@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:48:32 EDT Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 13:49:02 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Pin Hole Hell Organization: AEROCAD INC. David Domeier wrote: > Incidently, I think I've discovered a new method of killing pin holes. > My cowling from Feather Lite had millions of microscopic holes and would > not fill with primer, cab-o-sil, or spotting putty. > A local auto/airplane paint specialist told me he uses a rubber glove > when spraying primer and massages the primer into pin holes. David, I did this on my 3 place Cozy and got bit. I used K-200 PPG Urthane base primer and did what you did. I then baked in a oven to 200 for 4 hours and they came back. Did this 3 times and all looked great for about 2-1/2 years and then the paint had small divets where the pin holes were the first time. The heat of the cowling gets over 300 from sitting after shutdown and baked it some more :-) I know only use cab-o-sil and resin pushing hard with a spreader thin dust with micro to make sanding trace lines from the cab-o-sil EZer to sand off. This makes the part about 95% pin hole free with stuff that won't come back to make matters worse at a later date. Test a piece after baking it in a oven and tell us what it then looks like. hope that helps -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com P.O. Box 7307 Port St. Lucie, Fl 34985-7307 Phone/ fax (call first): 910-961-2238 after Oct 31 561-460-8020 AeroCad: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com From: Epplin John A Subject: RE: COZY: Pin Hole Hell Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:13:04 -0500 > David Domeier wrote: > > > Incidently, I think I've discovered a new method of killing pin > holes. > > My cowling from Feather Lite had millions of microscopic holes and > would > > not fill with primer, cab-o-sil, or spotting putty. > > > A local auto/airplane paint specialist told me he uses a rubber > glove > > when spraying primer and massages the primer into pin holes. > [Epplin John A] >snip Jeff writes: > I know only use cab-o-sil and resin pushing hard with a spreader thin > dust with micro to make sanding trace lines from the cab-o-sil EZer > to sand off. This makes the part about 95% pin hole free with stuff > that won't come back to make matters worse at a later date. > > [Epplin John A] What kind of epoxy are you using for this, West Systems? I tried a mix of cab-o-sil and micro balloons with West Systems that seemed to leave fewer pinholes than the micro itself. What about Qcell? I understand it is not to be used with some resins but can be used with West Systems. My limited experience indicates one can get a lot more done using West Systems 105 resin and 206 (slow) hardener than Aeropoxy. It sets faster, can be sanded sooner and is easier to sand. I am not sure about using it for structure, but have no problems using if for cosmetic purposes. I have not tried the 205 hardener. John Epplin Mk4 #467 Doing some surface filling occasionally, still have turtleback and canopy to build. by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.1-8 #23426) with SMTP id <01IOC43S55DA90AUE4@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:29:25 EDT Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 15:29:58 -0400 From: Jeff S Russell Subject: Re: COZY: Pin Hole Hell Organization: AEROCAD INC. Epplin John A wrote: > What kind of epoxy are you using for this, West Systems? Any kind I have at the time does the job. If it's clear I add 1 drop of food color after it's mixed so I know where I have spread. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com P.O. Box 7307 Port St. Lucie, Fl 34985-7307 Phone/ fax (call first): 910-961-2238 after Oct 31 561-460-8020 AeroCad: http://www.aerocad.com Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:35:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Re[2]: COZY: Re: Bondo All leading edges should be filled with flox instead of micro or anything else for about an inch vertically. With 500 hours on my COSY including IFR in some heavy rain, many moderate rains, and a zillion bugs, the leading edge paint is in excellent condition with no nicks. THe paint system is Tenaco epoxy primer, Ditzler epoxy primer thinned out as a sealer/ bond coat, and Ditzler Deltron. Carl Denk: "cdenk@ix.netcom.com" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:56:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Mr. Radon" Subject: Re: Re[2]: COZY: Re: Bondo Boeing Design Standards require that on any surface (composite) which has a + or - 15 degree line parallel to head-on impact to require rain erosion protection. For our wing to body fairings we call out an extra thick coating of polyurethane enamel. We fly at higher speeds and the erosion is greater then would be expected on a Cozy. All the composite parts within the 15 degree areas are replacable and are done so regularly. (should see what a piece of the tires do at take off speeds) Flox sounds like a good idea, with a few extra layers of paint on the leading edges. I would stay away from any "soft" filler for the leading edges/ nose. Hope not to fly in too much rain, and it probably doesn't matter all that much, just something to keep in mind. ROY > All leading edges should be filled with flox instead of micro or anything else for about an > inch vertically. With 500 hours on my COSY including IFR in some heavy rain, many moderate > rains, and a zillion bugs, the leading edge paint is in excellent condition with no nicks. > THe paint system is Tenaco epoxy primer, Ditzler epoxy primer thinned out as a sealer/ bond > coat, and Ditzler Deltron. > > Carl Denk: "cdenk@ix.netcom.com" > From: SWrightFLY@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Re: Re[2]: COZY: Re: Bondo In a message dated 10/3/97 6:00:49 AM, grossing@serv.net wrote: << would stay away from any "soft" filler for the leading edges/ nose. Hope not to fly in too much rain, and it probably doesn't matter all that much, just something to keep in mind. >> I recall hearing Mike Mevell recommend a coat of wet flox covered with peel ply for the LE of all surfaces. Steve Wright From: michael.amick@nashville.com Subject: COZY: Canopy Window Trim Date: Fri, 3 Oct 97 15:06:51 Organization: The Nashville Exchange-http://WWW.NASHVILLE.COM Hi to all! Fellow builder, Michael Link, is in the finishing up stages w/engine & avionics complete. He is using a thin layer of auto headliner material (1/4" soft foam w/soft knit fabric surface)in the roof areas and is trying to find a "L" shaped flexible trim to finish out the edges of the canopy windows. We already know it would be tons easier to have laid up a trim piece to fit while the canopy could have been sat top side down but are there any ideas for trim available at this stage of the game? Michael.Amick@Nashville.com member EAA chpt 162 MkIV #317 Chapter 6 Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 08:45:07 -0400 From: David Domeier Subject: COZY: Pin Hole Physics ?? I've decided to finish my MKIV with the wings attached and noticed, much to my satisfaction, after the first coat of primer, there were significantly fewer pin holes in the bottom of the wing than on the top. Could it be that pin holes tend to "fill in" when hit from the bottom as opposed to the top? Anyway, while the midwest weather is so nice, I am making progress with this stage building which is my least favorite. So far, I like Dupont 2K water borne primer very much. I've learned to control the HVLP gun output and pattern (runs are getting less frequent) and it cleans up easily. The only down side is the cost of the stuff - about $120 per gallon - and it looks like 2 gallons, which is actually 3 with the catalyst, will cover the airplane very well. The next step is learning how to use Duponts Chroma Base/Clear coat stuff. I've got the bottom cowling 400 grit smooth and it will be the test piece this week unless it gets cold. Dupont says you can use there product down to 55 degress F, so I just may get this beast painted before it snows. dd by post.larc.nasa.gov (8.8.6.1/pohub4.1) with SMTP id HAA11416 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:37:03 -0400 From: Paul Krasa Subject: RE: COZY: Pin Hole Hell -Reply At 08:23 10/3/97 +0200, Rego Burger wrote: >>>>>>West Sytems:. My limited experience indicates one can get a lot >more >done using West Systems 105 resin and 206 (slow) hardener than Aeropoxy. >It sets faster, can be sanded sooner and is easier to sand. I am not >sure about using it for structure, but have no problems using if for >cosmetic purposes. I have not tried the 205 hardener. > I have used both hardeners during the finish process. I used the same process Jeff described. For the 205, work fast, and watch out for exotherm. Keep any work thin. I have had West Systems with fast hardener run away on me more times than I can count. In the by the way category. When ever I had epoxy, no matter what kind left over, I mixed it up with Cab-o-sil, and covered the closet part which had pin holes and dusted the surface with micro balloons. Worked great, and was easy to sand even after some parts had set for months. Paul Krasa Long EZ 214LP Project Status: Most of the wiring is installed and ready to mount the engine for hopefully the last time. Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:34:58 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: Primer Question I'm using the PPG K200 primer and generally it's working really well. I have the bottom just about done, but as I was starting to wet sand this weekend, I noticed what looked like a few low spots here and there about the size of a quarter. They are not too low and the surface of them is lightly textured, but not smooth as they have not been sanded out yet. What I am wondering is will they "fill" when I spray the sealer or do I need to shoot it again with primer? Of course, I am hoping the sealer will do it as seeing these spots is tough unless you look at it at a sharp angle with bright light and I'm sure to miss a few. Cleaning the paint gun is a bummer too. Hoping for good news in the morning :-), Eric by post.larc.nasa.gov (8.8.6.1/pohub4.1) with SMTP id JAA25467 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:07:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:00:48 -0400 From: Paul Krasa Subject: Re: COZY: Primer Question >Cleaning the paint gun is a bummer too. I would suggest going to your local hubby shop and buying a cheap paint brush. The one I have is made of plastic with a steel paint tip and glass jar. It works great and saves alot of finish time. I often needed a little touch up here and there, but not enough to justify dirting a paint gun. The air brush toke just a few minutes to clean and the pattern was about the same as a can of spray paint. One word of caution though, make sure to remove the spray nozzle and clean out the threads. Epoxy primer will seep into the threads and make it nearly impossible to remove. Paul Krasa Long EZ 214LP by x9.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id USK29906; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:54:03 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:25:04 -0400 Subject: Re: COZY: Primer Question From: unick@juno.com (Nick Ugolini) While at Oshkosh I saw one of the best paint jobs ever on the a show winner and he used the PPG product line. HE used the PPG K36 primer under the PPG "Concept" acrylic polyurathaine. It shoot much easier then Imron. When he painted his plane with the Concept, he told me he had tons of imperfections, holes hairs and runs. He just took a tiny paint brush, filled the holes then later took 1200 grit sandpaper, wet sanded all the runs and paint repairs, buffed the plane out, and it was beautiful. You have to do this in the first 48 hours. If you wait longer than 5 days, the paint is too hard to buff or sand. Imron is nice, but it runs easily when shooting, and you basically are stuck with what you shoot. Very unforgiving. The K36 primer fills holes like crazy. For pin holes I just rub my finger in the wet primer to fill the hole and shoot a little more in the spot. I have actually filled air bubble holes 1/16" in dia and 1/16" deep. You get about 2 mil per layer. Cost ~$28/qt. One little item you MUST buy is a new 3M product used as a guide coat (instead of using black lacquer spray). You get a applicator which looks like a powder puff, and the black powder (looks like toner powder from a copying machine.) To check your fill work/sanding/painting you just use the applicator to rub the black powder on the surface. Then your sand the surface with your sanding block. The black powder sands off the high spots and highlights the low spots. Instead of using your eye and a bright light like you are doing, you will Really know where you low spots are. I just leave it on the low spots, spray about two coats of sanding primer on the low spots first for a high buildup and then spray the hole surface (10 min between coats). When dry, apply the powder and resand with the block to check the low area. Works great. Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:03:37 -0400 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: Primer Question Nick, Thanks for the tips on Primer. Sounds like you have the situation well in hand. I can't say the same for myself. I've been filling and sanding for over a year and still am not satisfied with what I see under a bright light... I've primed and wet sanded 3 times, the last time with 1000 grit, and I still see imperfections all over the place. I've gone over every square inch of the airplane looking for pin holes, find none, spray, and there they are again!! I've about decided I've reached the limit of my patience and skill in the this area and the top coat is going on. Maybe it can be repaired easier and buffed out later. I'm using Dupont Chromabase/clear coat and my supplier says the top coat can be buffed out any time. It does not get as hard as do some other systems. Good luck with flying your machine. Maybe see you OSH next year. I can't wait to get this beast in the air. I'm a much happier camper flying than I am building and I hate finish work totally and completely forever. dd by x9.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TuC00573; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:06:23 EST Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:27:11 -0400 Subject: Re: COZY: Primer Question From: unick@juno.com (Nick Ugolini) If you have sanded at 1000 grit you have gone way to far. Most of the nice paint jobs at Oshkosh stopped at 320 or 400 grit. When you go beyond that there is the possiblity (it has happened to others) that the paint will not have a suitable surface to "grip" to, and will detach itself from the primer. I would hate to go through all the the painting work only to have my finish come off or start to bubble. From: John B Vermeylen Subject: COZY: primer Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:39:23 -0400 Hi Dave,=09 I'm in the contouring phase of my project and I know how you feel. It = seems like it is taking forever. At Oshkosh' 95 I attended a forum on = finishing your composite airplane. Two things that stood out were how = to eliminate pin holes and waves. To eliminate pinholes we add some = micro to thicken our primer a bit and apply this primer with a rag. Yes = a rag! Dip the rag in the paint and rub the surface of your plane with = it, working the paint into those nasty pinholes. You can coat with a = paintbrush or sprayer afterwards. To get rid of those waves we primer = coat again but with a different color. The second coat is applied = lighter and gets sanded through. As you sand through the upper coat, = the lower area's will be the upper coat's color while the high areas = will be the lower coat's color. If everything is perfect then you would = of sanded the entire second coat off.=20 John B Vermeylen N69CZ=00=00 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:48:24 -0500 From: David Domeier Subject: Re: COZY: Primer Question Nick, re "If you have sanded at 1000 grit you have gone way to far." I hear you-all. You're the third builder to say essentially the same thing and I've come to agree with you - not withstanding the Dupont spec sheet which says "600 or finer" for top coat application. Here's where I am - and I'm literally stopped cold, since the temp in our area will hit a high of about 40=B0 F today - I've base coated the entire airplane in white. Dupont says to apply top coat within 30 minutes or so, but I couldn't do that because I found too many imperfections, and to try to paint the entire airplane at one time is impossible anyhow with the 30 minute specification. (my head obviously was up and locked when I started spraying last week) So I decided to repair the places I found unacceptable, sand to 1000 and top coat. Well, that won't work because I need to reapply some more base coat here and there to cover the repairs...and as you guys say, it may not hold, so I've decided to resand the entire machine to 400 which is what they recommend for base coat - and finish the airplane in SMALL sections. Dupont's base coat is like water. It is very thin and that's why they recommend 400. The technique I've learned to apply such thin stuff is to apply a very light coat, which flashes off in about 5 minutes, and then come back with a heavier coat to cover. You'd think one would have trouble with runs with such a thin material, by that's been the least of my trouble with it. It dries so fast, you can come back with a second or third coat in 5 to 10 minutes. The product was developed for auto repair shops that require high productivity, i.e., in the shop in the morning and out the door by noon. And that's why I've got to complete the airplane in small sections. It simply was not intended to paint an entire airplane, or auto, at one time. The end result is most acceptable, however. My cowlings and canard look very nice. When the top coat goes on, it makes you feel like a million bucks 'cause it does look good. My wife says it looks profession, but of course she is a bit biased and wants to see this project completed.... Thanks for your input.... dd From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: UV resistant Primers? Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 15:21:34 EST People; I've found the discussions on paint and priming lately particularly enlightening. Substantially different technology than when I used Featherfill polyester filler, Dupont 70S laquer primer, and Dupont Centari enamel paint on my Q2 in 1984. Apparently, the polyester filler is not recommended anymore (I'm planning on using the Sterling Urethane product, at the bargain basement price of $146/2 gal kit :-) ) nor are the laquer based primer(s). My question is: What UV protecting primer do people use nowadays to replace either the Dupont 70S or 131S (?) laquer based products? I assume that we still ought to apply a UV protectant to our finishes under the final paint, and that the Sterling (or other) filler does not include any UV protection (it certainly has no claims to do so). Do the standard primers that one gets to go under the Urethane final coat paints have any UV protection built into them? What's up? -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: wilhelmson@scra.org Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:01:52 -0500 Subject: Re: COZY: UV resistant Primers? _Mark: Any exterior type paint has UV inhibitors or is not bothered by UV, In any case paints with heavy pigmentation are usually opague to UV as well as visable light. The need for UV protection is valid but very easy to get. This is similar to the UV sunglasses hype. Plain glass is opaque to UV. That is why Uv spectrophotometers use fused quartz windows and cuvettes not glass. It is almost imposible to get a sunburn under glass because it lets through very small amounts of UV and what it does let through is long wave UV. The UV that does the damage is short wavelength 200 to 400 nanometers. The damage comes from unlinking the long chain molecules in the plastic or epoxy. Maybe some of our members can expand on this and correct me if I am wrong. I won't be insulted if so. Jack Wilhelmson N711CZ From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:23:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: UV resistant Primers? Highly recommend the Ditzler Deltron acrylic enamel. Easy to use, easy to touchup, lasts a long time. You have seen it. Ask Ron Wilson, talked to him the other day, says it gave him confidence in doing a excellent job, and he newer painted anything before I think. Ask and Ill describe the whole system. From: SWrightFLY@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:27:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: COZY: A different finishing idea In a message dated 10/29/97 1:46:29 AM, marcz@hpwarhw.an.hp.com (Marc J. Zeitlin) wrote: < Subject: re: COZY: Primer Spray Gun I purchased my HVLP gun from Harbor Freight for $69 (free shipping). It has a top cup for feeding the paint. Shot my primer (with balloons in it), and my finished coat. Turned out great. It even has a fan control (how wide the pattern is) which allowed me to easily paint the width of a elevator to the width of the canard. http://www.harborfreight.com/ Highly recommended. ------------- Original Text From: "Eric Westland" , on 11/12/97 12:25 PM: I gave up on trying to shoot the heavy-bodied primer through my regular gun and bought a gun made specifically for it. It's made by Sharpe and has a 2.3 mm tip whereas my regular gun (also a Sharpe) has a 1.6 mm tip. It's also HVLP (hooks up to your compressor) and will almost pay for itself since most of what you spray goes on the plane - at least that's what I told my wife :-). The best price I found was mail order at Salesco. You can get info at http://www.salesco.com/tools/spraygun/sharpe/sharpehvlp.htm I paid $167 for the gun and used it yesterday for the first time - it worked quite well. I tried to find a cheap imported gun to do this job since primer goes on so easy, but I found that the tip sizes on them were too small as well and that extra tip sizes were not available. Eric Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:22:15 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: COZY: Primer Spray Gun SWrightFLY@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/12/97 12:27:51 PM, you wrote: > > <> > > unable to find this. Could the address be wrong? > Steve It _was_ right, but that page has disappeared for some reason along with several of the other ones. If you wanted to give them a call, their number is 1-800-407-8665. Sorry. Eric Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:58:46 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: COZY: Primer Question Nick Ugolini wrote: > > > One little item you MUST buy is a new 3M product used as a guide coat > (instead of using black lacquer spray). You get a applicator which looks > like a powder puff, and the black powder (looks like toner powder from a > copying machine.) Nick is right on the money (as usual) with this one. Right after reading this, I went to my auto paint store and bought the 3M Dry Guide Coat. The kit cost me $24. Everything in this paint store is expensive, but after using it, I'd gladly pay double. It even works when you wet sand. Eric From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: COZY: Guide Coat Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 17:22:36 MST Chris asks: > Um, what is this used for? What exactly is a guide coat? That's a good question. I've never seen a reference to it in any homebuilding literature. After doing some restoration on my Colt at a local auto body class, I found that it is used all the time in body shops. Basically, the stuff looks just like a can of black spray paint except it comes out in speckles. It is intended to be applied very lightly to help guide you through the filling/sanding process. Basically, you apply it between each filling/sanding step. You end up sanding 95% of it away. It does a great job at showing the scratches, bumps, and voids. Low spots stay black and high spots will turn the color of the underlying primer first as you sand it off. It's a good idea to use it with a light-colored primer. I haven't used the stuff that Nick recommended, but it sounds like a much more convenient better way to apply it. People sometimes recommend using alternate of colors of primer to help find low spots. Guide coat makes that unnecessary and saves you the hassle of having to keep two or three different colors of primer around. Lee Devlin LongEZ 36MX Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:05:49 -0500 From: Ian Douglas Organization: WTC Subject: Re: COZY: Guide Coat Could this be used on a foam core to make its surface perfect before staring layups or would in contaminate the bond? -- Ian D.S. Douglas MK0069 back at shear webs From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:50:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Guide Coat On 11/13/97 20:05:49 you wrote: > >Could this be used on a foam core to make its surface perfect before >staring layups or would in contaminate the bond? >-- >Ian D.S. Douglas >MK0069 back at shear webs > > I wouldn't contaminate the foam surface with ANYTHING. As hotwired, the foam surface should be what you want, any sanding (except where blending as a freehand work of art) should be minimal, no more than a few light strokes, only enough to remove small high nubbins, and ridges. Any more, and the desired contour is destroyed, resulting filling later, which is heavier than foam. From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: COZY: Guide Coat Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 10:17:13 MST > Ahhh, like the grey primer we used making RP master tooling. Gotcha now. > The stuff we used was a flat grey filler primer, paint what your working > on, and the slightest scratch or inconsistncy shows up in the light. Well, actually, you use the primer first. You're right, that usually shows up the first level of defects. After you've fixed those and feel that you are really close, you put on another coat of primer to get everthing to be the same color. When you first put on guide coat, you can't see any imperfections. It's only when you begin to sand if off that the high and low spots become apparent. You don't need to carefully inspect it with a light, they just become really obvious in any light because of the high contrast of the black guide coat and the light-colored primer. Lee Devlin Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:04:57 -0800 From: "LCDR James D. Newman" Organization: INFINITY Aerospace - http://www.flash.net/~infaero Subject: COZY: Re: Guide Coat Hi Lee, Chris and All, >>Chris asks:<< >>Um, what is this used for? What exactly is a guide coat?<< >Lee Devlin wrote:< >It is intended to be applied very lightly to help guide you through the filling/sanding process. Basically, you apply it between each filling/sanding step. You end up sanding 95% of it away. It does a great job at showing the scratches, bumps, and voids. Low spots stay black and high spots will turn the color of the underlying primer first as you sand it off. It's a good idea to use it with a light-colored primer. I haven't used the stuff that Nick recommended, but it sounds like a much more convenient better way to apply it.< My Master Plug and Mold Maker helping me make the Infinity 1 kit tooling showed me a method of using red or blue Dykem mixed into Acetone, then lightly spread over the filler to lightly stain the project. Really shows the scratches. After just 3 or 4 passes with the long board, the Dykem stain is mostly gone and you can really see the highs and lows. This is a technique used by Kris Craft boats, for example. Infinity's Forever, JD Date: Mon, 17 Nov 97 08:11:17 EST From: "KEN SARGENT" Subject: Re[2]: COZY: Guide Coat Chris asks: > Um, what is this used for? What exactly is a guide coat? Re: I often see the tool and die makers here use machinist die (in spray can) to lightly stain the surface of polyester filler to see the high and low spots. This avoids the tendancy to sand down one spot locally to much and make a dip. Ken Sargent #555 ken_sargent@wda.disney.com Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 07:02:49 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: Which White?? The time is approaching when I need to decide which variety of white to use for my cover coat. Is it as simple as just asking for white or are there other considerations? TIA, Eric by post.larc.nasa.gov (8.8.6.1/pohub4.2) with SMTP id KAA27134 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:32:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 10:29:52 -0500 From: Paul Krasa Subject: Re: COZY: Which White?? At 07:02 12/8/97 -0800, Eric Westland wrote: >The time is approaching when I need to decide which variety of white to >use for my cover coat. Is it as simple as just asking for white or are >there other considerations? > >TIA, > >Eric > > I asked for the whitest white from PPG. I like it and next to my hanger mates airplane, his looks like it is a light cream color, but it is only a few shades darker. Paul Krasa Long EZ 214LP The most frequently asked question in homebuilding: When will it fly? My reply: I don't know, I work on it everyday, and someday it will fly, or Christmas(but I never say which Christmas). What do you tell people? Date: Mon, 8 Dec 97 10:44:56 EST From: "Nick J Ugolini" Subject: re: COZY: Which White?? There are many, many shades of white. Yellowish white, bluish white (the most bright) grayish.... you get the picture. The easiest way to deal with it is to buy the stock white for the type of paint you intend to use. (Dont get it tinted to some other shade of white). Easier to replace. If you what a certain color white, find a car or something that is already painted and have the supplier color match the paint. Make sure you write the color code in your records for future repainting needs. That way if you have to go back and repaint a section (nose wheel up landing) :-( it will be a bit easier to buy replacement paint. ------------- Original Text From: "Eric Westland" , on 12/8/97 10:02 AM: The time is approaching when I need to decide which variety of white to use for my cover coat. Is it as simple as just asking for white or are there other considerations? TIA, Eric Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 09:58:32 -0600 From: "Joseph H. Hart IV" Subject: Re:COZY: Which White? Eric Westland wrote: > The time is approaching when I need to decide which variety of white > to > use for my cover coat. Is it as simple as just asking for white or > are > there other considerations? > > TIA, > > Eric This brings up an issue that I came up with this weekend. Could we safely paint the composites pearl metallic white or even silver? Would the reflectivity of these colors be sufficient? Would the metallic coat hinder radio communications, make us more susceptible to lightning strikes, etc.? Thanks in advance for any info. Jody Hart jodyhart@communique.net From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:19:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Which White?? Mine is PPG Ditzler DAU2185, GM 1975 truck. Stick with a popular vehicle. THe DAU (Deltron) is an acrylic urethane, it can be buffed to a very high gloss without clear coat and touches up easily, where it is impossible to find the blend line. Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:46:38 -0500 From: "Jeff S. Russell http://www.AeroCad.com" Organization: AeroCad Inc. Subject: Re: COZY: Which White?? Eric Westland wrote: > > The time is approaching when I need to decide which variety of white to > use for my cover coat. Is it as simple as just asking for white or are > there other considerations? Eric, Use base white with no tint and you will have no matching problems later. Works for me. -- Jeff Russell/AeroCad Inc. E-mail: Jeff@aerocad.com P.O. Box 7307 Port St. Lucie FL. 34985 Shop# 561-460-8020 Home# 561-343-7366 Composite workshop info: http://www.Sportair.com From: wilhelmson@scra.org Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:37:03 -0500 Subject: Re: COZY: primer nozzles You need a special flaring tool. Not only is the angle different, all aircraft flares should be double flair. The tool folds the material twice. This is supposed to eliminate failures from metal fatigue Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:20:31 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: Deltron Help?? Well, I sprayed my first top coat today after asking a zillion questions and spending almost as much money. Over the PPG K200 primer, I shot a couple of coats of DP Epoxy primer as a sealer and then the 4 coats of PPG Deltron as a top coat. I would have to say that I am disappointed with this first effort and would appreciate some advice from those with more experience. Maybe I did everything right, but I was under the impression that you just sprayed this stuff and went flying (well close any ways). It looks though as I am going to need to buff this job out to get a really nice finish from it. So, Is my first assumption (no rub out) incorrect? If it needs rubbing out, what grit should I start with and where should I stop? What type of rubbing compounds (if any) are used. Thanks much, Eric Westland Mukilteo, WA From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:25:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: COZY: Re: [canard-aviators] Deltron Help?? For a test area, get a scrap panel from local auto body shop. Don't practice on ailerons, elevators, or any other balance control surface, there is enough problems trying to balance those without extra paint on them. Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 07:30:24 -0800 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: Deltron Help Solution Found Late Friday night I posted a question on spraying PPG Deltron DAU top coat after getting disappointing results. I received many excellent suggestions (which I hope to compile and post later, still need to get the family Christmas letter out) which got me headed down the right road - thanks again folks. While some questioned the paint GUN that I was using (a Sharpe HVLP gravity feed gun with a 1.6 mm tip), it turned out to be the paintER that was the problem. I spent almost all of the weekend rubbing it out, but my basic problem was that I had applied it too thin. I shot it again last night laying it on thick and it looks great. I'll still want to rub it out, but it now looks better before polishing than the "thin job" did after a weekend of rubbing. Thanks again to the many that offered prompt, well-informed advice. Eric Westland Mukilteo, WA