Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 11:52:43 -0400 (EDT) From: CozyBldr@aol.com Subject: COZY: Cozy:Attaching armrests Does anyone have a slick method for attaching the portion of the armrests that are removable? I was thinking about using velcro so I don't have any screws showing but I would like it to be a tight fit. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Paul Stowitts Cozy Mark IV #200 From: "James E. Marker" Subject: Re: COZY: Cozy:Attaching armrests Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:03:00 -0400 > From: CozyBldr@aol.com > To: cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com > Subject: COZY: Cozy:Attaching armrests > Date: Sunday, April 27, 1997 11:52 AM > > Does anyone have a slick method for attaching the portion of the armrests > that are removable? I was thinking about using velcro so I don't have any > screws showing but I would like it to be a tight fit. Any suggestions would > be appreciated. Conversion vans use this plastic stuff to hold in the VCR's, Nintendo's, and TV's. It is like velcro, but it holds extremely tight (you think you will break the components before they come out.) It is a plastic brush with one set of bristles facing one way and one set the other way so that they interlock. The whole thing is only about as thick as velcro. Below is my best attempt at ASCII art. _________________________________ / / / / / / / / / / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ ---------------------------------- Sorry, don't know where you can get it. My van is made by Tiarra in Indiana. Jim... > > Paul Stowitts > Cozy Mark IV #200 =========================================================================== Jim Marker Email: jemstone@csra.net Web: http://www.csra.net/jemstone/ Cozy Mark IV #0581 Cozy Web Page: http://www.csra.net/jemstone/cozy.htm Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 09:11:11 EST From: "KEN SARGENT" Subject: Re: COZY: Cozy:Attaching armrests I would recommend using 3M Scotchmate & Dual Lock fastening system. This is like velcro, but has a hook on hook system rather a a hook on loop that is extremely strong and re-usable. We use this product at Disney to hold trim panels on our coasters and simulators. I would caution you however on getting a real robust one, you can get a hook pattern that will hold better than some of the adhesives sticking the tape down. I get it through our suppliers, but you could call the 3M Marine Trades office at Atlanta 1-800-771-7049 for a distribution source. Ken Sargent Cozy Mark IV-#555 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: COZY: Cozy:Attaching armrests Author: CozyBldr@aol.com at disney-wdw-internet Date: 4/27/97 12:08 PM Does anyone have a slick method for attaching the portion of the armrests that are removable? I was thinking about using velcro so I don't have any screws showing but I would like it to be a tight fit. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Paul Stowitts Cozy Mark IV #200 From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Cozy:Attaching armrests (fwd) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 97 10:14:12 EDT Paul Stowitts asks; >Does anyone have a slick method for attaching the portion of the armrests >that are removable? I was thinking about using velcro so I don't have any >screws showing but I would like it to be a tight fit. Any suggestions would >be appreciated. Although Jim Marker's suggestion of the Velcro (tm) replacement would work fine, I'm sure, I chose to use tabs and screws. I've got two tabs at the bottom of the fuselage that the armrest fits into: armrest| | | fuse side \ | \ | tab \ \ / \ \ / floor ---\-/ I taped the armrest in place, and then laid up the tabs (3 BID, ~2" wide, 1/2" high) over some box sealing tape on the armrest. They're permanently attached to the floor of the fuselage for both the front and rear armrests. This keeps the bottom snug and in place. For the top, I laid up two (rear) or three (front) similar tabs, with the box sealing tape on the fuselage sides, and the tabs permanently attached to the armrest. These will be for sheet metal screws, to attach to the fuselage sides. Now that I think of it, it would be possible (not easy, but possible) to lay up the tabs on the INSIDE of the armrest, and have a couple of small holes for the screwdriver to fit through to install the screws. This way the armrest would have no exposed screws, but would be firmly held in place by them. I didn't mind the look of a couple of screws, expecially if they end up under some upholstery. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:41:07 -0400 (EDT) From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: COZY: Joystick cover I will soon need to cover the hole around my joystick. Are there any suggestions? Looking for some kind of flexible cover such as used on auto gear shifts. THanks -al by SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V5.1-7 #16063) with SMTP id <01IIUOU3W7Y2000MY4@SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Wed, 14 May 1997 07:46:30 PST Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:48:34 -0800 From: hrogers@SLAC.Stanford.edu (Howard Rogers) Subject: Re: COZY: Joystick cover >I will soon need to cover the hole around my joystick. Are there any >suggestions? >Looking for some kind of flexible cover such as used on auto gear shifts. >THanks >-al If you can locate a Tandy leather store near you, they have a wide variety of leathers for sale. Pigskin suede, doe, soft glove leather, all in a wide variety of colors. If not, look in the yellow pages under leather suppliers. This thin stuff is fairly easy to sew by hand, even for a rank beginner. Regards, Howard "Hangtown Saddlery" Rogers --Howard Rogers, 415-926-4052 hrogers@slac.stanford.edu Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:25:05 -0400 From: INFINITY Aerospace Subject: COZY: Re: Joystick cover Hi Al and All, >I will soon need to cover the hole around my joystick. Are ther= e any suggestions? Looking for some kind of flexible cover such as used on= auto gear shifts.< Price Club sells black leather mini skirts for $35+. Get the largest size they have to get the most material, and cut it up to make a Stick Grip boot - works great! If you're worried about all the chicks staring at you looking at mini skirts, just have your girlfriend, wife or= both with you, or have one or both get it for you. Infinity's Forever, JD Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:06:38 -0700 From: Jerry Kennel Subject: COZY: Cozy: Need Dimensions I have misplace the drawing that gives the placement dimensions for the vorticies tabs on the lower leading edge of the main wing. Could someone look on their drawing and tell me the dimensions? Thanks.. Jerry Kennel From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 20:09:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RE: COZY: Chapter 4 - Instrument Panel My electric ducts, which run from instrument panel through firewall, with holes a various locations were made with 1" sq. urethane foam, duct tape, 2 plys BID, pop off, flox on. Don't forget to run a branch to under the spar, ant top of the spar. Run your heavy battery cable outside. You can at anytime use a Mig weld wire with a loop on end a fish to get a new wire in. From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 17:14:42 -0600 Subject: COZY: Seats Decided to put my seats and supports in right at the end of chapter 9 when working around inside the fuselage is fairly easy. Can't see why I should wait until after the turtle back, upper firewall and strakes are done. The only concerns I have are the arm rests and center console. Decided to make the thigh supports (both front and back) along with the rear seatbacks a bit wider than called out. Might be interesting shaping these later once the armrests are in, but still should be relatively easier than the contortions I'd have to go through if I waited to do seats in chapter-sequence. Also considering doing the armrests and center consoles fairly soon after the control system is in. I think it will be much easier to do the side armrests with the fuselage rotated on it's side. Something to think about anyway. Larry Schuler #500 lschuler@cellular.uscc.com From: DFinn7971@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 15:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: COZY: Rear Thigh Supports Hi Guys, My Philadelphia assignment ends on Friday and I'll be back to building on Saturday after a two month layoff. Whoopee! Now for the question. I've seen two ways of handling the rear thigh supports. In one case there are no formers like in the front seat. It appears to me that this is what the plans specify. Some other people permanently attached the formers to the thigh supports. It seems to that this is a better alternative as it would give the thigh supports more strength. Does anyone have any suggestions as to the best way to proceed. Thanks, Dick From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Rear Thigh Supports (fwd) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 97 9:23:33 EDT Dick Finn wrote: >..... In one case there are no formers like in the front seat. It >appears to me that this is what the plans specify. Some other people >permanently attached the formers to the thigh supports. It seems to that >this is a better alternative as it would give the thigh supports more >strength. > >Does anyone have any suggestions as to the best way to proceed. The best way? Dick, you should know better than to ask _that_ here - there _is_ no _best_ way :-). I'll tell you _my_ way, though :-). I didn't like the idea of hinging them (although I _did_ hinge the seatbacks - make sure you do a good job of lining up the hinges - I _didn't_ and my seatbacks aren't exactly parallel, and the hinges bind a tiny bit). I built a larger lip around the front of the seat bottoms like on the front seats so that they just curl over the front of the seat bulkhead and rest on the floor. Since they're smaller than the front bottoms, they're strong enough for me to stand on, although putting in ribs like in the front would certainly make them stronger still. However, it would ruin that area as a baggage space (maybe not a big deal). Basically, I just removed the hinges and put in a larger lip. They slide around a bit, but I figure that if the upholstery doesn't hold them in place, I'll put some velcro on them, and if they're not strong enough, I'll put a couple of ribs under them. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Mon, 06 Oct 97 12:18:18 -0600 Subject: COZY: Rear Thigh Supports Dick Finn wrote: >My Philadelphia assignment ends on Friday and I'll be back to building on >Saturday after a two month layoff. Whoopee! >Now for the question. I've seen two ways of handling the rear thigh >supports. In one case there are no formers like in the front seat. It >appears to me that this is what the plans specify. Some other people >permanently attached the formers to the thigh supports. It seems to that >this is a better alternative as it would give the thigh supports more >strength. >Does anyone have any suggestions as to the best way to proceed. Dick, Just finished mine. Could have sworn the plans call for the support ribs I believe you are refering to. Same as the front, and same curve. Just a bit shorter in length. If not, then I screwed up royally. Assuming they are required, taping the ribs to the thigh supports rather than the bottom may be a nifty way to make more room for storage if (whan) supports are removed. However, I think this would change the load-handling capability of the fuselage floor. I think this may be more important than the load handling ability of the thigh supports alone. The thigh supports, in general, need to handle part of the weight of a person and the floor needs to cary the entire weight of the person. Just thinking of the practical aspects. Not sure this matters too much with the main support rib in place, but something to think about. Larry Schuler #500 lschuler@cellular.uscc.com by x9.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id UFZ22985; Tue, 07 Oct 1997 20:02:39 EDT Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:31:34 -0400 Subject: Re: COZY: Rear Thigh Supports From: unick@juno.com (Nick Ugolini) In my LongEZ I made the rear thigh supports adjustable. It is wonderful because when I move it foward or aft, it effectively adjusts the head height of the passenger and is VERY comfortable. I can easily accomidated a short child or tall adult, and have their head at the perfect 1" from the canopy. Constructing the support was quick and easy. I made the side, front and center supports, (1/4" foam 1 layer bid each side). Form the basic shape you desire for your thighs. Use tape covered cardboard to form the top of the thigh support and use hot glue to hold it all together. I then put plastic in the plane then placed the support in the plane in the appropriate location then and covered them with two layers of BID. This forms the support to match the inside of the plane. Pop out when hard, pull out the cardboard from the bottom and tape the inside corners for strength. VERY light weight. For adjustablity I drilled two holes near the aft end of the support. I place the support back in the plane and marked 6 locations as I moved the support foward to aft in about 1 inch moves. At each location I took a patch of pre-wetted 1" square (two layers BID) and placed them at each marked location for strength. Then I place the support back in the plane and using the holes in the support as a guide, I drilled (3/16") through the inner layer of skin in the strenghtened locations. Place two 1/2" AN3 bolt in the thigh support holes a and cover them with bid. You now have a thigh support with two pins (bolts) in the aft end. You can move the support foward and aft simply by lifting the aft end up and fitting the pins into matching holes in the plane. The weight of the passenger keeps the pins in place and keeps it from moving. It easily adjusts for the height of different passenger. Build time... About 8 hours. From: lschuler@cellular.uscc.com Date: Tue, 07 Oct 97 10:16:00 -0600 Subject: COZY: rear seats Boy did I screw up!!!!!!!!!! Installed rear thigh support ribs as in front seat but NOT called for in the plans. All it should have is the bulkhead. No ribs. Put in the ribs because I had figured it was necessary for obtaining the curvature needed in the thigh support (plans don't explain how to get the curvature; just that it's the same as the front). Damn I hate it when that happens. Sure is humbeling... At least it wasn't a critical structure like a spar or something! Got in a hurry I guess and didn't read carefully enough. Couple of weeks between front and back seat work. Had read the section ahead when doing the front, and then when it came time to do the rear I 'ASS'umed I knew enough without re-reading. Stupid, stupid, stupid *&^%#*&^%@)@%*^!!! Now I understand why the thigh support is hinged. To keep it from sliding around. Wouldn't need to be attached with ribs there. Ok, now I need some input. Other than cluttering up some good storage space, will these ribs make the fuselage too stiff? Any suggestions will be appreciated. Should I cut them out or keep 'em? Larry Schuler #500 Eating humble pie in Wisconsin lschuler@cellular.uscc.com From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: rear seats (fwd) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 13:23:06 EDT Larry Schuler wrote: > Ok, now I need some input. Other than cluttering up some good storage > space, will these ribs make the fuselage too stiff? Any suggestions > will be appreciated. Should I cut them out or keep 'em? Can't hurt - leave them in unless you need the storage space. I sincerely doubt that infinitesimal oil-canning of the bottom of the fuselage is a necessary characteristic of the COZY design :-). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:01:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: rear seats (fwd) On 10/07/97 13:23:06 you wrote: > >Larry Schuler wrote: > >> Ok, now I need some input. Other than cluttering up some good storage >> space, will these ribs make the fuselage too stiff? Any suggestions >> will be appreciated. Should I cut them out or keep 'em? > >Can't hurt - leave them in unless you need the storage space. I >sincerely doubt that infinitesimal oil-canning of the bottom of the >fuselage is a necessary characteristic of the COZY design :-). > >-- >Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com > > I missed which parts were being added or deleted, what follows is a discussion of general structural engineering nature, to be considered before modifying something (it may be an obscure part of the structure, without looking like it. Adding structural members (ribs) to a structure, whether it be a bridge or an airframe, may redistribute the forces (stresses). In the Structural engineering books its called an indeteriminate structure, I think the British call it hyperstatic. A good example of a static structure is a 3 leg stool, the forces in all legs can be easily calculated using only trigonometry type calculations. The elasticity of the material is not required. A four leg stool is indeterminate (assuming its not rocking), and the calculation of loads in each leg becomes very complicated and requires the elasticity, area and other physical properties of the pieces. Since the stool is a very stiff structure, with great (relatively) change in stresses for very small movements, changing a leg length by a very small amount will change the load in a leg much. The Cozy airframe is a complex indeterminate structure, with the bulkheads mainly used a indeterminate frames to brace the torsion between the canard and wings. The bottom line is changing a structure by adding, or subracting members may oveload some other location. My Cosy drawings had a bolt at the leading edge of the strake/wing location. This was added by Cosy Europe, to satisfy some German FAA requirement. Burt Rutan's comment to the specific question was, its not required and could be harmful. Note that the three 1/2" wing bolts are similar to the 3 leg stool. When adding the 4th bolt (leg) the restraint of movement (and there is atleast 1/8") between the wing/strake during full scale load tests. The force needed to keep the original position is generated, and every force creates a reaction. That reaction must go to the other bolts, and could be in either direction, increasing or decreasing the original loading. This could overload either by overloading in the same direction of the original load, or go in the opposite direction. Imagine a cable trying to take compression, you would just a well have a wet noodle. Carl Denk: "cdenk@ix.netcom.com" From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: COZY: rear seats (fwd) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 8:58:30 EDT Carl Denk writes: >........ The Cozy airframe is a complex indeterminate structure, with >the bulkheads mainly used a indeterminate frames to brace the torsion >between the canard and wings. Absolutely true. >The bottom line is changing a structure by adding, or subracting members >may oveload some other location. Also absolutely true. However, using some (whatever small amount I've got left after dealing with computers on a daily basis) "engineering judgement", we can examine the floor of the rear cabin of the cozy, imagine the stress flow lines from the Landing Gear Bulkheads and Main Spar as they travel through the fuselage sides and the fuselage bottom, and come quickly to the conclusion that adding a couple of thigh support ribs in parallel with the center heat duct will not appreciably change whatever small amount of stress that section of the fuselage floor inside skin distributes. Now, as Carl says, without doing a full analysis (either by equations or by Finite Element Analysis), I cannot be absolutely sure of this position (even then, without testing), but given the relatively localized nature of the issue in question and the fact that the rear thigh rests are not a major structural member, I feel pretty confident here. A simple thought experiment would be to imagine how much the fuselage would twist due to a downward force on one corner (say the forward pilot's side) while both rear corners (at the firewall) were clamped not to move. Would adding these rear thigh rest ribs change that in any measureable way? My judgement says no - others may reach other conclusions. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: Epplin John A Subject: COZY: Arm rests. Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:45:33 -0500 I checked Marcs chapter 24 entry. Very good photos and details. I did mine a little different and have one question of those that have this area finished. I made a permanent layup from the bearing bracket forward to the instrument panel bulkhead, only the top and inboard side of the bracket. This was done over .25 in. foam with 2 bid outside and one inside. I only made the side as deep as the height of the bearing bracket. I then made a foam box type affair much as Marc did except it goes forward on the sides to the instrument panel. I made a cutout in the top only for the stick, left the sides solid. I had to thin the foam on the inside to almost nothing in the area of the stick to get the max stick movement. My spar is not in so I cannot check the aileron travel, all I can do is check the stick travel which is 20 deg each side of neutral. Not the big question: I somewhere got the impression that the ratio of stick movement to aileron movement is 1 to 1. If so I will be OK. Is this the case? The armrests are not yet finished so I can make changes at this time easily. I intend to make them removable much the same as Marc did. My object here was to minimize the ugly looking boot covering the stick opening. Thanks. John epplin MK4 #467 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:49:09 -0700 From: "LCDR James D. Newman" Organization: INFINITY Aerospace - http://www.flash.net/~infaero Subject: COZY: Re: Arm rests Hi John and All, >My spar is not in so I cannot check the aileron travel, all I can do is check the stick travel which is 20 deg each side of neutral. Not the big question: I somewhere got the impression that the ratio of stick movement to aileron movement is 1 to 1. If so I will be OK. Is this the case?< I believe the maximum throw for the Long-EZ in any direction is 20 degrees. Infinity's Forever, JD From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:40:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: COZY: Arm rests. JOhn Eplin writes Organization: INFINITY Aerospace - http://www.flash.net/~infaero Subject: COZY: Re: Arm rests Hi Carl, John and All, >John Eplin writes Carl Denk writes: >I question whether that is wise since the armrests are structural members. The strake bottom skin functions partially as a cantilever beam, loaded with fuel weight, torsion loads from the spar, which is quite flexible in torsion before the strakes are closed, and a small load at a large lever arm from the RTV in the wing/strake joint. These loads result in tension and compression at the strake/wing joint. The armrest function as a beam in the plan view, carrying the loads to the seat backs, and instrument panel for further distribution. All the control bearing are reinforced by the armrests. It wouldn't be difficult if necessary to take the dremel and cut a local hole, repair whatever, and a minor repair of the hole.< I personally want to always have access to everything for maintenance without cutting things up and needing to re-paint whether I get in their every 5 years or not. But I too had the same concerns as Carl. So, my top part of the arm rest is fixed with a hefty 90 flange that acts as a plate for the removable arm rest side panels. Small bulkheads are placed between the instrument panel and pilots seat under the arm rest top for support, and under the arm rest top between the pilots seat and the PAX seat for extra support. You will probably need to trim these small bulkheads under the top armrests so that the throttle linkage and flight control linkage has clearance. The top part of the arm rest being structurally fixed in for the above concerns certainly would add to the overall strength, and comes in very handy for the leaning against with your elbows as you get out of or settled into the cockpit. Some people even stand on them to get in. So, whether you deem the armrests are structural or not, it is really nice to have arm rests you can really lean on :-). FFT & HTH. Left Arm Rest between instrument, pilot and PAX bulkheads. Much detail is left out, but you should get the idea. ------------------------ ---------------------- | | | | | | | Flange Bulkhead | | ----------------------| | |_| Drawing not to scale. Infinity's Forever, JD From: Epplin John A Subject: RE: COZY: Arm rests. Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:52:51 -0500 > JOhn Eplin writes I question whether that is wise since the armrests are structural > members. The strake > bottom skin functions partially as a cantilever beam, loaded with fuel > weight, torsion > loads from the spar, which is quite flexible in torsion before the > strakes are closed, and > a small load at a large lever arm from the RTV in the wing/strake > joint. THese loads result > in tension and compression at the strake/wing joint. The armrest > function as a beam in the > plan view, carrying the loads to the seat backs, and instrument panel > for further > distrubution. All the control bearing are reinforced by the armrests. > > [Epplin John A] I am in partial agreement with Carl. However, the plans armrests and the ones I see on the line at OSH are mostly cut through for stick clearance. There cannot be much structure left in a beam cut 90% through. I have braced the bearing brackets such that they are supported on three sides, this seems more than adequate. I have not yet made any attachment provisions. I intend to use the flange described by Marc for the bottom side and may add a shelf for the top to lay on. This shelf can be made fairly substantial to provide additional stiffness the fuse sidewall. Keep the ideas rolling. John epplin From: Epplin John A Subject: COZY: Fairings and covers Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:54:44 -0600 I just completed a nifty little cover for the electric speed brake actuator. Was really proud of it! I made a box from .5 in. scrap Styrofoam, 2 bid outside one inside, with a .7 or so flange all around. I then made 5 tabs, L shaped with #8 plate nuts riveted to the short leg which was trimmed to the min. height. The other leg was left about 1 in. square. I screwed these to the cover on the inside of the flange I had left. I then loaded the tabs with stiff flox and placed the thing in place. I left it 24+ hours, removed the screws, and popped the cover loose. WOW, the tabs all were well bonded with flox extruded out all around them. Grind off the excess flox and a real nice job. Now, WHY did I put a tab right in front of the fuel selector valve port? I thought I had made all the mistakes I could on this project. Anyway the plus side is that I could not remove the tab by twisting it with pliers, at least I chickened out thinking I might do damage to the seat back. It will come off with 24 grit in the handy little die grinder. I am using the same scheme to mount the arm rest removable parts. I will be laying up a flange on the fuse side to insert the lower edge into, copied the idea from Marc, then a few tabs with plate nuts to screw the top surface into. This eliminates sheet metal screws into the fuselage side walls. I have a problem with long term use of self tapping screws into a thin layer of glass. Seems they keep getting larger as time goes on. Lesson to learn: PLAN AHEAD, Murphy is still alive and well. John E. Mk4 #467