Date: Wed, 21 Feb 96 08:22:00 PST From: Brian DeFord Subject: Finishing materials I have recently completed the canard for the MKIV and want to finish the surface while I await the next infusion of $$$. I was wondering if anyone received the information from Roy Baillets (sp?) that was mentioned in his Oshkosh forum tape on "finishing and contouring"? Did the information contain a brand name and source for the plastic filler and a recommended epoxy system and would you mind sharing this info? Thanks, Brian DeFord, N309BD, Chap 7 complete Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 12:43:00 PST From: Brian DeFord Subject: Finishing materials source Group, After re-listening to the Roy Baillet's tape on contouring and finishing presented at Oshkosh '95, I was able to get in touch with a very nice lady at the company he mentions, PQ Corp. She was kind enough to fax me a data sheet on the plastic microsheres that they sell. If there is sufficient interest, I'll copy the contents of the description and the data sheet and post them to the group. The material is an extremely light (0.55lb/ft^3 bulk density) hollow sphere with prices starting at $30/lb. Give me some feedback... Regards, Brian DeFord, N309BD, COZY MKIV Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 18:34:32 est From: "Larry Schuler" Subject: Re: Finishing materials source You're right! It was a plastic; problem he said that you could only buy an entire 55-gal drum of it at a time. Is that still the case? If not, I'm game for more info. Larry ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Finishing materials source Author: Brian DeFord at INTERNET Date: 2/23/96 12:43 PM Group, After re-listening to the Roy Baillet's tape on contouring and finishing presented at Oshkosh '95, I was able to get in touch with a very nice lady at the company he mentions, PQ Corp. She was kind enough to fax me a data sheet on the plastic microsheres that they sell. If there is sufficient interest, I'll copy the contents of the description and the data sheet and post them to the group. The material is an extremely light (0.55lb/ft^3 bulk density) hollow sphere with prices starting at $30/lb. Give me some feedback... Regards, Brian DeFord, N309BD, COZY MKIV Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 23:21:07 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: Plastic Microspheres I am getting to that pont that I need to start learning more about the finishing. People curse the pinholes they constantly have to fill. How do these plastic ballons compare and how many pounds might the average plane take considering the amount you end up sanding off? I also recall vague details of finishing materials from the past that have not held up so well over time. Is this a "new" idea or a time-proven one (I don't want to finish the airplane twice :-() I may well be interested, hope to learn more? Eric Rob Cherney wrote: > > Hi y'all > > Back in November, I floated an offer to see how many people might be > interested in a group purchase of plastic microspheres. This is > what I offered at the time: > > "At Oshkosh, I attended a tent forum on composite finishing by a > guy named Bailets (if I recall correctly). He suggested using > plastic microspheres for fairing and finishing instead of the > usual glass microspheres. The benefits of this material is that > it is just as light as glass, mixes more readily with epoxy, > sands easier, and is more impact resistant than the glass > equivalent. The material is called Dualite M6001AE. Does > anyone have any experience with this material?" > > "I have located a source of the stuff, but I must purchase > several lifetime supplies as a minimum order (50 lbs). If there > is some benefit to using this, would others be interested in > splitting a batch of the material? It would cost less than $50 > for 5 lbs, including boxing and shipping." > > At the time, I only got about 4 others interested in sharing the > cost of an order, and I was hoping to get 9 others. With only this > many people, I didn't think it was worth pursuing. Based upon some > recent posts to this mailing list, however, I thought I might try > again. Additionally, I might have found some others outside of this > group who might be interested. Any takers?? > > Rob- > +--------------------------------------------------------+ > |Robert Cherney Home Phone: (410)465-5598 | > |Ellicott City, Maryland e-mail: cherney@clark.net | > +--------------------------------------------------------+ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 11:16:49 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: Plastic Microspheres Thanks Rob, Please keep me informed on the "group buy". Lets see how many want in and what else we learn about the stuff. Maybe an inquiry on RAH would gather some more experienced advice. It is probably going to hard to figure out how much one needs and generally that would not be a problem unless you needed another pound in which case you might have to buy 50. I suppose you could always finish with glass balloons, but you may not get even sanding in areas that contain both. Later, Eric Rob Cherney wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > > I am getting to that pont that I need to start learning more about the > > finishing. People curse the pinholes they constantly have to fill. How > > do these plastic ballons compare and how many pounds might the average > > plane take considering the amount you end up sanding off? I also recall > > vague details of finishing materials from the past that have not held up > > so well over time. Is this a "new" idea or a time-proven one (I don't > > want to finish the airplane twice :-() I may well be interested, hope > > to learn more? > > I can only guess that you will need a similar amount of material. > I don't know how much Nat suggests purchasing since I'm building a > Berkut. As for pinholes, I still think that you will get them. > There are certain laws that apply here, this one being the "law of > conservation of misery". > > I can only give you some details as to my limited experience with > the material. I used a little bit (that was provided as a sample to > me) to fill a small depression just before I did the shear web layup > on one of the wings. My experience is that the material mixes > readily with the Epolite epoxy that I'm using, although it does not > become airborne as easily as the glass microspheres when mixing. > The material safety data sheet shows no known toxicity, but to avoid > breathing the stuff (naturally). When cured, it looks like the > micro that we all know and love. Sanding seemed similar to glass > micro. > > I'm taking it on faith, at this point, that the material is superior > to glass microspheres based upon the word of an expert -- Bailets. > My interest in pursuing its purchase is based upon this second-hand > knowledge. I can't offer any more testimonials than that. > > Rob- > +--------------------------------------------------------+ > |Robert Cherney Home Phone: (410)465-5598 | > |Ellicott City, Maryland e-mail: cherney@clark.net | > +--------------------------------------------------------+ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 07:59:52 -0600 From: Scott Mandel Subject: Finishing Materials Hi Guys, I read all the E-Mail this weekend about finishing materials. I talked to Frank Bibbee last night. He finished his Cozy in about 18 months and has now flown the first 7 hours. He used a product called Superlite Epoxy Filler. He said it was great. You don't have to mix in any micro bubbles. You put it on in light coats, because there's no mixing of micro it always has uniform density. He said, it was much easier than the method he used on his VariEze, material leaves almost no little gaps to fill. Oh, yeah - It cheap too $20 a gallon from Wicks. I'm interested in other peoples opinions. This stuff seems too good to be true. If it does everything I've heard I can't imagine why anyone would want to fool around with anything else. So there must be something I missing. ___________________________________________________________ / \\|// |---(o)---| \ | (o o) o/o\o Chap 9 | \_o00o~(_)~o00o_____________ | / Scott L. Mandel \ Email: mandel@esy.com | | 6813 Pendrige Drive | Voice: 1-214-205-8762 | | Plano, Tx. 75024 | Fax: 1-214-205-6012 | \___________________________/_______________________________/ Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot. Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:31:49 -0600 From: Scott Mandel Subject: Chapter 26 - Filler Material >Superlite Epoxy Filler A little bird (or maybe a big chicken) told me - Stan McGommery developed the product about 3 years ago while he worked at Alexander Airplane Parts. He left and has now formed his own company to build parts for the EZ-Racer. Sharpest epoxy engineer (this little bird) had ever met. He demonstrated the filler at a building seminar (this little bird) attended. The material goes on like wet microbubbles, and is very VERY easy to sand. Nice finish because you can use a fine paper and still take off material very easily. He designed it to adhere well, and expand and contract with the underlying substrate. As the little bird recalled: The product is made of natural materials (and epoxy) and I seem to remember that you can color it with food coloring. Coloring the filler helps to determining where to fill and where low spots are, and where Not to sand. This little bird wanted to protect his identity from the big bad hunters on the Internet that shoot little birds that give the wrong information. :-) But I thought we all could benefit from what he has to say. Maybe that little bird is really a wise old owl. ___________________________________________________________ / \\|// |---(o)---| \ | (o o) o/o\o Chap 9 | \_o00o~(_)~o00o_____________ | / Scott L. Mandel \ Email: mandel@esy.com | | 6813 Pendrige Drive | Voice: 1-214-205-8762 | | Plano, Tx. 75024 | Fax: 1-214-205-6012 | \___________________________/_______________________________/ Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot. Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 14:00:00 PST From: Brian DeFord Subject: PM 6545 Hollow Spheres - Finishing Material All, Sounds like there is plenty of interest in the plastic microspheres, so here is the info I collected (word for word from the fax I received). By the way, another material has been mentioned in some postings this weekend called Dualite M6001AE. This sphere has a coating on it which allows it to be manufactured at a lesser cost than PM6545. The effective density is higher however (somewhere in the range of 0.13g/cm^3). This figure is based on a PQ Corp salesman pitch, so take that as you will. I am trying to locate some comparison data, but decided to go ahead and post this info FYI. The PQ Corporation Specialty Products Group PO Box 840, Valley Forge, PA 19482 PM6545 is an extremely light and versatile hollow microsphere. Its plastic composition results in the lowest known density of any microsphere product. Only a very small amount is needed to provide substantial volume filling in formulations. PM 6545 has excellent flexibility, thus the walls of the sphere can survive a variety of stress environments. PM6545 offers excellent resistance to solvents, including styrene. The oleophilic surface permits good dispersion in organic fluids, but also provides good wet-out in latex systems. In choosing a hollow microsphere for an application, the density and strength of the microsphere usually dictate a particular product. However, with ultra-low density and flexible walls, PM6545 can be used to cover the whole range of applications where microspheres would be incorporated. Plastic spheres have found utility in such wide ranging applications as emulsion explosives, autobody putties and sealants, and in epoxy syntactic foams. PM6545 finds further utility in combination with other hollow microspheres in various applications. For high-pressure, PVC plastisol spray, the use of glass or ceramic microspheres with a small amount of PM6545 provides synergistic effects. The flexible plastic sphere acts to cushion the rigid filler, providing stress relief, and results in better microsphere survivability. Typical Properties: Phisical form Free-flowing powder Color White Bulk Density 0.009 g/cm^3 0.55 lbs/ft^3 Mean Particle Size 100 um Particle Size Range 15 - 200 um Effective Density, 0.020 g/cm^3 Gardner Cup Maximum Use Temperature 120 C PACKAGING AND HANDLING: PM6545 microspheres are supplied in 1 and 2kg bulk bags from our plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Our Technical Service Representatives will provide assistance in the proper handling of the product. SAFETY INFORMATION: PM6545 may cause respiratory and dermal irritation. This product is not marketed for in contact with food. Material Safety Data Sheets will be supplied with the product and on request. For samples and technical service, call (800) 252-0039 or (615) 629-7160; FAX (615) 698-0614. To place an order, call (800) 777-5780 or (610) 651-4200; FAX (610) 251-9124 PRICE SCHEDULE: Quantity Price 1 Carton (1 kg) $66.00/kg $30.00/lb 1 Box (7 kg) $63.80/kg $29.00/lb 8 Boxes (56 kg) $62.70/kg $28.50/lb 16 Boxes (112 kg) $61.60/kg $28.00/lb 24 Boxes (168 kg) $59.40/kg $27.00/lb PRICES: Effective 1-1-96 SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE. PM6545 may be combined with other microsphere products for quantity discounts. All prices are based on FOB shipments from Chattanooga, TN. TERMS: Net cash 30 days from date of invoice PACKAGING: PM6545 is available in 1 kilogram bags and 7 kg boxes MINIMUM ORDER: 1 bag Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 18:24:06 -0600 From: Jon Finley Subject: Superlite Epoxy Filler Scott Mandel recently posted some information regarding a product called "Superlite Epoxy Filler" and stated that it could be purchased from Wicks. I cannot find it in my Wicks catalog. I have what I believe is their latest catalog which is 94-95(????). What page is it on?? Sounds like a nice(read cheap) alternative. Thanks, Jon Finley \ / Quickie 54JF - 1835cc VW ____\___/O\___/____ Bloomington, MN \_\\_//_/ From: "Rob Cherney" Organization: Ellicott City, Maryland Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 20:25:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Chapter 26 - Filler Material > Stan McGommery developed the product about 3 years ago while > he worked at Alexander Airplane Parts. He left and has now formed his own > company to build parts for the EZ-Racer. Sharpest epoxy engineer (this > little bird) had ever met. I went to the same builder's seminar and worked with the material. Afterwards, when I bought the material and tried it out, it did not have the same properties as the one I tried in the seminar (took longer to cure to a sandable condition). I asked around and I got word (second hand, I might add) that the material was reformulated after Stan left Alexander. The word on the street (which I cannot verify) is that Alexander did not want to pay Stan a royalty. This is not to say that the stuff is not good, however. So, if you want to try the material, be careful and see if it has the properties you want before committing to its use on a grand scale. Caveat emptor. Rob- +--------------------------------------------------------+ |Robert Cherney Home Phone: (410)465-5598 | |Ellicott City, Maryland e-mail: cherney@clark.net | +--------------------------------------------------------+ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 19:30:31 -0500 From: PBurkha238@aol.com Subject: interior painting Cozy folks, I just finished painting the rear seat area. I used Stone Craft paint sold at Home Depot. Its 10.00 a kit(includes one can of paint and a smaller can of sealer). So far I have used 8 kits and figure I will need about 3-4 more kits to finish the front seat and inside canopy. The paint looks good and doesnt run at all. It covers the fiberglass nicely. I painted the armrests first and then covered them and reinstalled them prior painting so I would not have to use more paint than I needed. (weight too) Paul Burkhardt Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 23:43:49 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Walsh Subject: Chapter 26 - Filler Material (fwd) I have had the experience of finishing a MKIV with micro and a canard with the super lite. The only difference I saw was in curing time and air bubbles. Superlite cured very quickly and had few holesto fill. It sands the same as mirco...maybe even a little harder. You have to mix it in a bowl. I have however had othwers that used it tell me theirs was great....so it could be a possibility that I had been mixing wrong. Bill W Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 09:55:00 PST From: Brian DeFord Subject: Finishing material update I have received my 1kg bag of plastic microspheres (PM6545 from PQ Corp) and have done some small area testing to see how well it works. I am pleased with its sandability and it appears very robust compared to glass spheres. One issue I see is that because of its small size, it is VERY difficult to mix without creating a dust cloud. Does anyone have a suggestion as to how I can avoid this each time I mix a batch? By the way, the 1 kg bag came in a box 8 cu ft in volume and the bag nearly completely filled it! This is VERY light weight material! I plan to complete the installation of the landing brake this week and then I will finish the bottom surface of the fuselage with the microsphers to get an idea of how well the material works on large surfaces. Also, since I have no reference point to base this material against, are there any suggestions as to what you would like to see reported on such as sandability, pinholes, etc.? Brian DeFord, Cozy MKIV #309 From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: Finishing material update Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 14:33:37 MST After reading Brian's posting, I was curious to find out how the filler material density affects the density of wet/dry micro mixtures and its weight-savings potential on the plane. If a very light filler is mixed with epoxy that weighs 1 gm/cc, the end product is determined primarily by the weight of the epoxy. In other words, making the filler 20 times lighter will not have a proportional effect on the density of the final product, volume ratios being equal. Here's an example: Glass balloons weigh approximately 1 lb/gallon which is around .1 gm/cc. According to the information given in Brian's posting, the plastic balloons weight 1kg/8 cu. ft. which is only .0044 gm/cc. A factor of 23 times lighter than glass balloons?! Wow! Here is the density I computed in gm/cc of the various micro mixtures: slurry wet micro dry micro Volume Ratio 1:1 2:1 3:1 4:1 5:1 Glass spheres .56 .41 .34 .29 .25 Plastic spheres .502 .336 .253 .203 .17 % weight savings 11% 18% 26% 31% 32% To determine overall weight savings, let's say the average mixture for final filling is 4:1 and the Cozy has 500 sq. ft. of surface area. This would mean that at an average thickness of 1 mm, you would use about 30 lb of glass sphere filler micro vs. 21 lb of plastic sphere micro. This gives a savings of 9 lbs which is quite good, particularly if it's easier to sand. Incidentally, I've seen the weight 49 lbs shown in Newsletter 46 for a 1 mm coating of micro and can't figure out how Dietmar Bartling arrived at that number unless my 500 sq. ft. estimate of surface area is way off. > I plan to complete the installation of the landing brake this week and then > I will finish the bottom surface of the fuselage with the microsphers to > get an idea of how well the material works on large surfaces. Also, since > I have no reference point to base this material against, are there any > suggestions as to what you would like to see reported on such as > sandability, pinholes, etc.? I'd be most concerned with how the plastic sphere filler compares with the glass sphere filler in terms of: hardness (i.e. resistance to denting) shrinkage thermal expansion compatibility with glass cloth/epoxy It would also be useful to know if the same mix ratios produce the same consistency of end product so that the calculations above are meaningful. Thanks for sharing this information with the group, Brian. I'm one of the readers that will be looking forward to the results of your experiments. Lee Devlin From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: Finishing material update Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 17:51:22 EST Lee Devlin wrote: >To determine overall weight savings, let's say the average mixture for >final filling is 4:1 and the Cozy has 500 sq. ft. of surface area. I think this is a bit high. The COZY has ~100 sq. ft. of wing and 12 sq. ft. of canard. Multiply by two for top and bottom gives 225 sq. ft. Add another 150 sq. ft. for fuselage, and you get 375 sq. ft. >This would mean that at an average thickness of 1 mm, you would use >about 30 lb of glass sphere filler micro vs. 21 lb of plastic sphere >micro. This gives a savings of 9 lbs which is quite good, >particularly if it's easier to sand. Yes, good if true. Personally, I find the 2427 epoxy with glass micro to be VERY easy to sand - I can't imaging it getting any easier without the stuff just melting off the surface :-). >............. Incidentally, I've seen the weight >49 lbs shown in Newsletter 46 for a 1 mm coating of micro and can't >figure out how Dietmar Bartling arrived at that number unless my 500 sq. >ft. estimate of surface area is way off. Two points: 1) Lots of people make their micro wetter than the 4:1 mixture that you assumed - you don't need to use a lot more epoxy to add up to that extra 19 lbs. IFF you've really used that much micro - see the next point. 2) I keep seeing this "1 mm coating of micro average" thrown around by Nat and others. I've got to take exception to this (and piss some people off) - but my view is that anyone that needs to put ANYWHERE NEAR this much micro on in any but a FEW places has really screwed up their shapes, either with hot-wiring, carving or jigging. When I built my Q2 (with self hot-wired wings), I think that my wings only had more than a weave-fill amount of micro (maybe 0.2 mm) on them on about 15% - 20% of their surface area, and in those areas, the thickness might have varied up to 2 mm, with an average of 1 mm. If I was able to carry those ratios over onto the COZY, for the full area of wings and fuselage, I'd have an average thickness of less than 0.3 - 0.4 mm. This would (with 4:1 micro and the 375 sq. ft. total area) give a maximum of 9.0 lbs. of glass micro, or 6.3 lbs of plastic micro. With 5:1 micro (easily achievable, but hard to spread :-) ) the weights would be ~15% lower, or 7.7 lbs. and 5.3 lbs. Now, I know we want to minimize weight, and if it makes it easier to sand, and doesn't cost a lot more, hey, let's use the plastic bubbles. But let's not kid ourselves about how much weight we're going to save - having a big sandwich and a piece of pie before a flight will add up to more than the difference between these two types of fillers; we're looking at 2 - 3 lbs. difference here, if we shape things right in the first place and minimize filler usage. :-). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 09:50:00 PST From: Brian DeFord Subject: Re: Finishing Material Update I must clarify why I am using the plastic microspheres versus the glass so it doesn't cause any more confusion (Marc, this is by no means a flame - you can take off the suit). This is not in any specific order. I am: - Trying to achieve better impact resistance (stones, bugs, rain, hail, etc.) - Trying to achieve better flexural properties - Trying to minimize the pain of sanding - Trying to minimize pinholes - Trying to pass on knowledge gained by the experience for the benefit of others - Very open to the suggestions and comments of others I am not: - Trying to save weight - Endorsing the use of plastic over glass spheres or any other filler material - An expert Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 21:36:55 -0500 From: Wschertz@aol.com Subject: MIxing microspheres Since the plastic microspheres are really light, how about putting the required amount in a plastic ziploc bag, pour in the epoxy, zipit shut, and knead the material until it is mixed. I have never done this with this material, but have done it for other mixing operations. Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 23:12:50 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: Finishing Materials In the most recent newsletter, Rob Harris writes,"We used Glassadour filler primer with a finish coat of Jet Glow....you will find nothing better". Anyone know of these products and/or have any experience with them? Eric Date: 09 Apr 96 10:23:00 EDT From: Rick Roberts <102503.1561@compuserve.com> Subject: Filling and fairing the Airplane Okay, what's the bottom line and the best material to use for filling and fairing the fine flying machines we are creating?? Rick Roberts Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:38:01 -0700 From: Eric Westland Subject: COZY: Plastic Microballons? A few months back, some of you were looking into ordering the plastic microballons. The thinking at that time was that they might be good for finishing - lighter, easier to and and possibly less pin holes. Has anyone been using these and do you feel they are worth the extra cost? Thanks, Eric Date: 21 May 1996 10:20:33 -0700 From: "Judd Stewart" Subject: COZY: Sand-paper (12" x 18" stick FYI The Home Depot sells 12 x 18" sticky back sand-paper in varies grits. It is for use with wood floor refinishing equipment they rent. Price is $5.95 each. Judd Stewart 619.552.5581 judd_stewart@cpqm.saic.com From: "Rob Cherney" Organization: Ellicott City, Maryland Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 18:32:14 -0400 Subject: Re: COZY: Plastic Microballons? Hi Eric: > A few months back, some of you were looking into ordering the plastic > microballons. The thinking at that time was that they might be good for > finishing - lighter, easier to and and possibly less pin holes. Has > anyone been using these and do you feel they are worth the extra cost? Brian DeFord and I were looking into this stuff. We identified two materials, but neither of us were willing to commit to order large amounts of the stuff until we were sure it was the proper material for our application. Recently, I contacted Roy Bailets to get a more definitive answer. He told me to be careful, since the material and the coatings (sizing) had to be compatible with epoxies. I had to pay Roy to identify the proper material (after all, he is a consultant), and I should get his notes in the mail any day now. I will share the information with this group when I receive it, and we can then decide if we want to make a group order. Rob- +--------------------------------------------------------+ |Robert Cherney Home Phone: (410)465-5598 | |Ellicott City, Maryland e-mail: cherney@clark.net | +--------------------------------------------------------+ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:49:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Roy Grossinger Subject: COZY: Microspheres A message a while back stated that microspheres crushed when mixed aggressively. I was a little doubtful of this seeing how a sphere is the best shape to withstand breaking, not to mention the stuff is in an epoxy mixture which acts like lubrication. I mixed up several consistencies of micro, spread them on glass slides my sister (the doctor) gave me, let them cure and looked at them under the microscope. I didn't see any broken microspheres! Whoever sent the posting on the plastic? balloons, where did you come across the fact that these microspheres were fragile? ROY Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 20:00:05 -0800 From: Eric_Westland@msvl.wednet.edu (Eric Westland) Organization: Marysville School Dist. Subject: COZY: Cockpit Paint I found a source for MultiSpeck cockpit paint, my local Sherwin Williams paint store. They don't make it, but they do carry it. All of the other stores I called had not even heard of it. They sell it for $41 a gallon (Zolotone was $80 locally and $64 thru ACS) and through this weekend, all of their paints were 30% off making the cost a little less than $30. I don't know if any of this applies nation-wide, but I thought I would pass it along as it is rare when you can ever buy anything for a plane on sale. It has a shelf life of one year, although the can states it can last longer if stored properly. -eric -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From: Ken Reiter Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 08:46:27 CDT Subject: Re: COZY: Cockpit Paint On the MultiSpec paint - please do not forget to get the clear top coat. The multispec will not last very long if not top coated. Ken - Dallas, Tx Date: Mon, 22 Jul 96 20:00:06 -0800 From: Eric_Westland@msvl.wednet.edu (Eric Westland) Organization: Marysville School Dist. Subject: COZY: Finishing Supplies I am looking for a mail order source for finishing supplies such as quality sandpaper, sanding tools and even paint. My local paint stores have been treating me like a cash cow ($42 for a sanding board), so I was hoping to find some more reasonable prices. Thanks, Eric -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:54:05 -0400 From: Wschertz@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Finishing Supplies Check out Klingspor's Sanding Catalogue Post Office Box 3737 Hickory, NC 28603-3737 They have excellent sanding materials, and have a "bargain box" with cutoffs from their wide material. The sanding belts that I have from them seem to last much longer than locally purchased materials. Bill Schertz Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 22:50:35 -0400 From: StetsonE@aol.com Subject: Fwd: COZY: Finishing Supplies In a message dated 96-07-23 08:58:23 EDT, Bill writes: > Check out > Klingspor's Sanding Catalogue > Post Office Box 3737 > Hickory, NC 28603-3737 > > They have excellent sanding materials, and have a "bargain box" with cutoffs > from their wide material. The sanding belts that I have from them seem to > last much longer than locally purchased materials. I second this! I've used their products for the last 5 years. There telephone number is 800-228-0000, and they accept phone orders 24 hours per day last time I checked. Two products I've used extensively are their "shop rolls" that come on a roll in a variety of widths. The material is cloth backed, so you can use spray rubber cement (3M brand M77) to glue in onto your sanding blocks. When its worn out it comes off your sanding blocks easily and completely, unlike paper backed materials. I buy the 25 yard 4" wide rolls in 100 and 40 grits, and tear off what I need. The stuff is great, and the price is only slightly more expensive than regular sandpaper if you compare the price by the square inch. Stet Elliott stetsone@aol.com Perpetual Long-EZ builder --------------------- Forwarded message: From: Wschertz@aol.com Sender: owner-cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com Reply-to: Wschertz@aol.com To: Eric_Westland@msvl.wednet.edu, cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com Date: 96-07-23 08:58:23 EDT Check out Klingspor's Sanding Catalogue Post Office Box 3737 Hickory, NC 28603-3737 They have excellent sanding materials, and have a "bargain box" with cutoffs from their wide material. The sanding belts that I have from them seem to last much longer than locally purchased materials. Bill Schertz Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 06:36:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "George A. Graham" Subject: West Sys Epoxy Marc, West Marine at: Braintree, 66 Wood Rd 617-356-2100 Peabody, 243 Newbury St. 508-535-7332 Purchase the gallon of resin, and pumps. You will use this stuff with microballoons for all your filling - and hardshelling. They charge $ 5.00 for their catalog, which you can deduct from your next purchase. Lots of good stuff. Usually the same pricing as mail order, less freight, plus tax. Thanks for your help. Modified E-Racer #206 Strakes and Mazda Engine next George Graham {ca266@freenet.buffalo.edu} Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:17:09 -0400 From: DFinn7971@aol.com Subject: COZY: Tim Merrill's Cozy I just got my pictures back from the Oshkosh Air Show and was looking at my snapshots of Tim Merrill's Cozy Mark IV. I thought it might be worthwhile to pass on some of the things that I noticed that Tim did to made the plane a prize winner. I certainly plan to implement some of his ideas. - The interior was said earlier to be leather (tan or light brown). His wife told me it was actually an artificial leather. From one picture it looks as if the inside of the canopy is a slightly lighter shade of tan. It makes for an attractive contrast. The upholstery was done by Tim's mother. - The unupholstered part of the interior was finished in a white textured paint as opposed to the speckled grey (trunk paint?) that many builders use. It is obvious that the inside was finished in the same manner as the outside prior to painting. I think this is much more attractive then the trunk paint. - Tim's gas spring for the canopy is not mounted to the right headrest. He built a small shelf behind the right head rest to support the mounting bracket. - Tim used Vance Atkinsons fuel guages but put a red line at the half way point. Does anyone know how he painted the line? Is it inside or outside of the gauge? - He has what looks to be a piece of matching carpet with a sewed on border in the storage area of the strakes. - On either side of the front seat there is a round polished aluminum trim ring with a milk glass lense. This is a light that can be turned on from inside the door that opens the canopy. Tim's wife commented that it eased getting in and out of the plane at night. The light is in the front part of the storage area in the strakes. - Tim has a colored light mounted above the headset jacks on the right head rest. This can be used with two different filters as a map light. - The retract handle was custom made. It a looks to be a sturdy piece of chromed metal with lightening holes. Tim's wife told me all the metal was polished aluminum. - Tim's son made a cover for the throttle quadrant out of fiberglass. It was nicely finished and painted a satin black (it is a tad shiny though -- somewhere between flat and shiny black). - I don't know how he did the lettering but do not think it was the rub on type. It looks real professional. - The canopy latches have a nicely done enclosure. Most Eze's just have the latches mounted to the longeron. His are in a molded (formed) bubble that is covered with the upholstery. There is a piece of polished aluminum with cutouts on the top for the latches and spring catch to go through. - I noticed that the front hinge on his canopy protrudes 3/8" or so. I bring this up as there was a fairly recent discussion relating to the front hinge positioning. - All doors a perfectly fitted. This is very noticible on the hinged door for access to the canopy latch. Mine is contoured on the inside as it is in the depression area for the control stick. Tim's is flat and about 1/8" thick. It looks much more professional. - Tim's son designed and built the foot step. I don't know how the linkage works but the basic idea is to pull up on a small knob on the left side of the cockpit. As you pull up the foot step slides out from the side of the fuselage. The gizmo works very smoothly and is obviously well done. - I snapped a picture of the underside of the cowling and just noticed a small tube extending downward an inch or so on the inboard side near the fire wall. I'm not sure what this is -- breather for the fuel tanks maybe??? - There is a square cutout on the left underside of the cowling. Again, I'm not sure what this is for. Can someone enlighten me on these last two points. - The canopy handle is also polished aluminum. And was hand made by Tim. It resembles a short section of a hand rail of the type that you would find to help a disabled person get out of a bathtub. Far be it from me to criticize this plane but I think it looks a little bulky . - There is a very neatly done canopy seal around the perimeter of the canopy. I didn't notice it at Oshkosh but it appears to be made of some type of rubber about 1/2" wide by 1/4" thick. Hope you guys find this of some interest. Dick Finn Cozy Mark IV #46 DFINN7971@AOL.COM id <01I8S1BN747K8ZPU6Z@InfoAve.Net> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by InfoAve.Net From: Nick Ugolini Subject: COZY: Filling and Finishing The original paint of my varieze is peeling all over the place. I am faced with the sad task of repainting my entire plane. I believe the paint peeling was caused by improper use of a filler material (the red goop that you use to fill pin holes and scratches. There is a very weak mechanical bond at any spot where it was spread out in a layer. I will need to do lot of sanding and filling before balancing and painting. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------- I want to throw out to the group these questions: -Recommendations on paint removal from my airplane (sanding is the pits) -Recommendations on filling/finishing -Paint type recommendations ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------- I have reviewed the archives on finishing/filling for ideas and came up with this one from CP78? or 79. RAF recommends the following: Dont use polyester fillers (Featherfil) Weak bonding...... 1. Sand glass with 40 or 36 grit (better), ten strokes in 90 deg. directions Coat with pure epoxy, wipe off with a paper towel Mix micro to peanut butter consistancy, put on surface to build up, cover with peel ply and squegie out. Let cure. Sand with 40 grit on a sanding board until you sand down to surface of the weave. Repeat step 1 until you have the desired shape. LEAVE THE SCRATCHES 2 Mix pure epoxy and paint on to fill the scratches, squegie hard and wipe dry. Wait until surface has start to set up and repeat step 2, four additional times. This will fill all the scratches. (total for 5 times) Let cure. 3. Wet sand with 200, then 300 grit. 4 Paint!! RAF recommends using epoxy all the way up until you start the paint layers. Sound good to me..... I think a discussion/thoughts on this subject would benifit the entire group later on your project. Nick Ugolini unick@mail.charleston.net Varieze N89RS Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:26:30 -0400 From: wilhelmson@scra.org Subject: Re: COZY: Filling and Finishing NICK: Unfortunately I have lots of experience with finishing and refinishing and refinishing and refinishing (this is not a typo) my COZY. The RAF method you refer to has some things in it that are very true and some things that lead me to believe that it is a theoretical process that has never actually been used. First the things that I can agree with: 1. Don't use polyester fillers, stick with epoxy or ureththane, preferably epoxy. 2. Sand all the old stuff off with 36 grit down to the glass. I use a professional model 1/4 sheet palm sander. Be careful not cut through the first glass layer. It sounds like automotive bondo was used on your plane. This is polyester. You must get it all off. Things I cannot agree with: 1. Mix micro, put on peel ply, and squeegee out excess. This is a contouring attempt, however the squeegee will squeeze the micro out of the low spots and you will be back where you started. This may work, if the idea here is to use the peel ply to keep the micro from picking up on the squeegee, if so they needed to explain the process better. When using micro for contouring (filling low areas, and reshaping to template) the micro tends to pick up on the squeegee causing low and high areas that may require second or third applications. Also the peel ply will be imbedded in the micro because it is soft (not like putting peel ply on glass). 2. The problem after contouring with Micro is not scratches, it is pin holes caused by the glass bubbles being cut in half by sanding. Filling with unfilled epoxy will work but it will take many applications to fill the pin holes and all the excess (in the areas where the pin holes are not) most be sanded off. I have tried this and it takes a lot of coats to fill the pin holes and the raw epoxy surface is very hard to sand with fine sandpaper that will not leave more scratches. All raw epoxy surfaces most be sanded to remove the gloss and be sure the paint will adhere. What ever you do, Be sure the method and materials you use have been used (on glass epoxy airplanes) and have been proven to hold up for at least two years. Refinishing is twice as much work as finishing. Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:02:17 -0400 From: wilhelmson@scra.org Subject: Re: COZY: Filling and Finishing NICK: I finished my new canard three years ago with the following process. 1. Sand surface with 36 grit to remove gloss. 2. Contour with medium wet micro. Sand all micro off except where need to fill low spots or build up to template. 3. Spray on one heavy coat of DUPONT URO filler. Sand down untill glass starts showing in high areas. Color URO filler slightly by adding tinting and spray a medium coat. Sand evenly until untinted filler stats showing. Low areas will show up as colored spots. Sand with 220 grit dry. Do not use wet. Moisture can be trapped and cause problems later. Continue this process until you can Close your eyes and drag your finger tips over the surface and feel no variation. Make sure all surfaces have been sanded at least lightly. Spray on one light tack coat of DUPONT IMRON. When tacky to the touch spray on a final heavy gloss coat. Overspray is a major problem because of the large connecting areas. Techniques to solve overspray, bugs in the paint, and other problems, are probably too detailed to talk about unless there is a popular demand. The bottom line: The canard finished with this method and these products has been flow and parked outside in the elements for three years with no problems. I am refinishing the rest of the aircraft the same way. Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 18:28:14 -0800 From: Eric_Westland@msvl.wednet.edu (Eric Westland) Organization: Marysville School Dist. Subject: COZY: Filling and Finishing con't I am sortof between ISP's, so I won't be getting mail until Marc gets back, but the best resource I have seen on finishing these planes is an article by Ken Miller in issue #26 of the Central States newsletter. Ken takes you from start to finish using West for filler, PPG K200/201 heavy-fill primer and PPG (Ditzler) Deltron single stage paint for the finish. His advice on the West has been right on and I shot a little of the primer to get a feel for how it works (and just how perfect the west had to be) and it's great stuff. It's still work (lots) and is not cheap, but it seems to work very well. I highly recommend the article, even if you go with a different system. Eric -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From: "Ken Grakauskas" Subject: Re: COZY: Hard-Shelling/Filling Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:11:20 -0400 Steve Hall wrote; > Has anyone tried useing this thined micro (by using alcohol) > in the finishing of their plane (ie wing, canard)??? > In its thined condition it should fill voids and heavy weave > like "triax", by being easyer to spread, should leave less pin-holes, > and be a lot lighter!!! But,,it may be softer after cureing > due to more "Microballoons" in the mix!!! Although I haven't done any filling yet I know several individuals that have who have finished their Cozy's and EZ's with the West system. The micro is finer and much less susceptible to the pin holing you get with micro balloons. That was one of the first things that was mentioned when I started building. They HIGHLY recommend it. Ken Grakauskas New Century Engineering and Design Phone: 517-687-5007 Fax: 517-687-5517 E-mail: grakau19@wolv.tds.net Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:03:15 -0700 From: berkut@loop.com Subject: Re: COZY: Hard-Shelling/Filling Ken Grakauskas wrote; > > >Although I haven't done any filling yet I know several individuals that >have who have finished their Cozy's and EZ's with the West system. >The micro is finer and much less susceptible to the pin holing you get >with micro balloons. That was one of the first things that was mentioned >when >I started building. They HIGHLY recommend it. > That's the method we use for the Berkut. Use a heat gun to keep the WEST micro warm and it will spread like sour cream. If you want to extend the working time use the 206 hardner. Then for final pinholes we use a polyester spot putty and Sterling 1761/1762 heavy body primer -- Richard Riley Experimental Aviation, Inc "The important things 3025 Airport Ave are always simple. Santa Monica, CA 90405 The simple things 310.391.1943 are always hard." 310.391.8645 fax See the Berkut at http://www.berkut.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:05:24 +0200 From: Rego Burger Subject: COZY: Final Filling Someone wrote: >That's the method we use for the Berkut. Use a heat gun to keep the WEST >micro warm and it will spread like sour cream. If you want to extend the >working time use the 206 hardner. Then for final pinholes we use a >polyester spot putty and Sterling 1761/1762 heavy body primer Hi folks, Just be careful - Polyester does not have mechanical bonding strength campared with epoxies even on rough surfaces. Polyester products were designed for General purpose resins and the auto trade. Use these at an absolute minimum on your aircraft skin. They are also heavy. This should be a low concern as only Pinholes are being filled. It would be beter to apply spot putty onto primer to fill the imperfections you wish to solve. Do your finishing prep. with the West system. It is a flexible ( hence do not laminate with it) epoxy, less prone to cracking from stresses. This is for all bumps etc. and contouring. Once you got the shape and texture to 95% and smooth, spray with a "plastic" primer ( tell your paint shop it's for epoxy/fibreglass) This primer should be a mild etch-primer ( plastic bonding ), the brand I use here in S.A. has been formulated here so you would have to shop around over there. I have done a few cowling and nose cone repairs that have been hit by hail etc. Those that have chips were all sprayed with general purpose primers. O.K. hail is a little extreme. Then for those first undetected blemishes I mix micro into the same fast drying primer.( same chemical ) I use this in place of spot-putty and it sands like baby powder. Individual techniques will differ so choose a point or two that may help your style. Also try to keep chemicals as close as possible for compatibility. Thanks for all the tips guys Chew on this one. Rego Burger P.E. S.A. Cozy Mk Iv # 139 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:48:35 -0400 From: COZYMK4@aol.com Subject: COZY: Cozy: Pinholes Are "pinholes" due to the half micro sheres that are shaved / sanded open OR are they the inevitable air bubbles that get mixed into the micro during the stirring? I have found that letting the epoxy or micro slurry sit for 10-15 minutes allows any air-foam bubbles to float to the surface and I use it in places that don't matter so that the good stuff (without air) can be used where it counts. Alas, this reduces workable time and can allow an exotherm to occur. Dry micro that is used for finishing wouldn't settle anyway. Simple question, tough answers. ;-) Thx Kevin Funk Cozy Mk4 #90 Lubbock TX From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Cozy: Pinholes (fwd) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 17:51:56 EDT Kevin Funk writes; >Are "pinholes" due to the half micro sheres that are shaved / sanded open OR >are they the inevitable air bubbles that get mixed into the micro during the >stirring? The second one. All fillers have this problem to some extent - you have to go through the same pinhole filling exercise with Bondo on cars, or with Featherfill on Q2's :-). I'm truly looking forward to going over the 300 - 400 square feet of surface area on the COZY with a magnifying glass and . :-). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:52:29 -0700 From: berkut@loop.com Subject: Re: COZY: Cozy: Pinholes > >I have found that letting the epoxy or micro slurry sit for 10-15 minutes >allows any air-foam bubbles to float to the surface and I use it in places >that don't matter so that the good stuff (without air) can be used where it >counts. Alas, this reduces workable time and can allow an exotherm to occur. > Dry micro that is used for finishing wouldn't settle anyway. > You can put micro in a bell jar and put it under vacuum for a couple of minutes, that will help. -- Richard Riley Experimental Aviation, Inc "The important things 3025 Airport Ave are always simple. Santa Monica, CA 90405 The simple things 310.391.1943 are always hard." 310.391.8645 fax See the Berkut at http://www.berkut.com Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:10:06 -0400 From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: COZY: Powder coat Any thoughts on suitability of powder coat on metal items like pedals, etc? -al by SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (PMDF V5.0-6 #10979) id <01IB0OCBW7FY000FS4@SERV05.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> for cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com; Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:48:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:50:56 -0700 From: hrogers@SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Howard Rogers) Subject: COZY: Re: Powder Coat >Any thoughts on suitability of powder coat on metal items like pedals, etc? >-al I can't see any problem with it on steel parts, but I personally wouldn't use it on aluminum. The temperatures reached while baking powder coatings *could* affect the strength of the aluminum. There has been at least one fatality as a result of attempting to fill an aluminum scuba tank that had been powder coated. --Howard Rogers, 415-926-4052 hrogers@slac.stanford.edu Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:07:58 -0400 From: AlWick@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Re: Powder Coat In a message dated 96-10-24 13:53:21 EDT, you write: << use it on aluminum. The temperatures reached while baking powder coatings *could* affect the strength of the aluminum. There has been at least one fatality as a result of attempting to fill an aluminum scuba tank that had been powder coated. >> Thanks for the input. I'm suprised about the reported powder coat - aluminum connection. As I recall powder cure temp is 400f or less for powder. Aluminum properties unaffected till you get around 1000f. In fact, many alum alloys receive an 'artificial age' of around 350f after being solution heat treated at 1000f. One of the criticisms of powder I heard about was related to engine mounts. Supposedly the mount weld could crack, yet be hidden by the thick powder shell. Was wondering if others felt this legitimate. Once again, thanks -al