Date: Mon, 08 Apr 96 09:21:16 est From: "Larry Schuler" Subject: Chapter 5 I was building a rough mock-up this weekend to check the affects of widening the fuselage before I do it in glass...... Chapter 5 (can't remember the figure) calls for distinct creases across the Masonite forms. I didn't see any, so I stopped at that point. maybe I did something wrong with the FJ* supports? I didn't attach the Masonite to the supports yet; afraid to if I made them wrong. Will they show up when I fasten the Masonite? Are there distinct "creases" in them, or just small radius bends? If there are creases, does the Masonite need to be scored? Thanks for any help you can provide. Larry Schuler MKIV-#500 From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Chapter 5 (fwd) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 96 11:37:27 EDT Larry Schuler writes: > Chapter 5 (can't remember the figure) calls for distinct creases >across the Masonite forms. I didn't see any, so I stopped at that >point. maybe I did something wrong with the FJ* supports? I didn't >attach the Masonite to the supports yet; afraid to if I made them wrong. It's been over a year since I did the fuselage sides, but I would check the plans again - I think you DON'T want creases in the masonite, as this would lead to angles in the fuselage sides, not radii (which is what you DO want - smooth ones). I certainly don't remember either having any corners. or being told to have corners, and I haven't seen any corners in the fuselage sides of the other COZY's I've seen. Maybe I'm nuts - if anyone else remembers making corners, not radii, please let us know. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:04:14 -0500 From: campbell@ee.umn.edu (prof S. A. Campbell) Subject: Re: Chapter 5 (fwd) I agree with Marc on this. Even if you had creases, which I would also deem undesirable, it is unlikely that the foam will follow it all that well. You only tack it down to the masonite. Steve Date: Mon, 08 Apr 96 14:05:05 est From: "Larry Schuler" Subject: Chapter 5 (fwd) Marc Writes: >It's been over a year since I did the fuselage sides, but I would check >the plans again - I think you DON'T want creases in the masonite, as >this would lead to angles in the fuselage sides, not radii (which is >what you DO want - smooth ones). I certainly don't remember either >having any corners. or being told to have corners, and I haven't seen >any corners in the fuselage sides of the other COZY's I've seen. >Maybe I'm nuts - if anyone else remembers making corners, not radii, >please let us know. Thanks Marc, Thought I was the one who was nuts....... The creases are shown in the figure, but I sure don't remember seeing any Cozy's with angles either, at least on the outside. All the photos I have show nice mooth curves, but wasn't sure if it was something that gets taken care of later. The darn thing is just a mock-up; and already I'm a perfectionist! Can't wait to see how I get with glass... Actually bothers me a bit; am I being too picky? I tried calling Nat, but he is out for two weeks. Thanks agian. Larry MKIV-#500 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 18:38:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Randy Crutfield Subject: Re: Chapter 5 Ditto on previous comments regarding the creases. I think the intent was to make sure that the masonite takes on the shape defined by the unequal length FJC and FJE sides. Even if you made the crease, the foam would not conform without making relief cuts. After this layup is complete, the sides are still flexible enough that the true shape can be defined by the bulkheads when assembling. Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:56:35 -0400 From: Fritzx2@aol.com Subject: Re: Chapter 5 (fwd) In a message Marc Z. wrote: >It's been over a year since I did the fuselage sides, but I would check >the plans again - I think you DON'T want creases in the masonite, as this >would lead to angles in the fuselage sides, not radii (which is what you >DO want - smooth ones). I certainly don't remember either having any >corners. or being told to have corners, and I haven't seen any corners in >the fuselage sides of the other COZY's I've seen. > >Maybe I'm nuts - if anyone else remembers making corners, not radii, >please let us know. Before glassing the exterior of the sides, the plans call for smoothing any sharp bend that might have occured in making the sides on the masonite. Refer to Chapter 7 Page 2, end of first paragraph of Step 2. So yes, a smooth bend is what your shooting for. The bend is along the outside of the sides opposite to where the front seat is positioned. John Fritz Fritzx2@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 11:22:24 -0400 From: JHocut@aol.com Subject: Re: Chapter 5 (fwd) In a message dated 96-04-08 11:39:10 EDT, Marc Z. wrote: >Maybe I'm nuts - if anyone else remembers making corners, not radii, >please let us know. Wether Marc's crazy or not is not our decision to make, but in this case his memory is correct, no creases. What's being referred to here (I believe) is an imaginary line drawn from the sharpest radius at the top of the fuse side to the sharpes radius at the bottom of the fuse side. The word "crease" is a little misleading. Jim Hocut jhocut@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 13:23:33 est From: "Larry Schuler" Subject: COZY: Re: Vac. Bagging Sides Thanks for the info Jim. I couldn't figure any other way, but one side [shell] at a time also. Other than maybe filling the gap between masonite with a strip of foam coverd in plastc (or box-tape) and single sheet of plastic on bottom; but I wasn't willing to sacrifice my expensive foam yet, not knowing how much I will really have left over..... Only other reason not to do both simultaneously is the number of hands available for layup vs pot-life consideration. I made the masonite exact (full length) {except that I used a BASIC curve fitting program to smooth the points out (plotted every 0.5") also did the same with the 1" x 8" forms. I cut the 1 x 8 pine boards in one piece; matching-pairs at a time, on my band saw. That was rather interesting since I was alone {lots of clamps and appropriate swear words}! But it worked very nice. When I made my mock-up, I noticed there were too many rather abrupt contour changes; the curve-fitting and one-piece cutting sure made things smoother; albeit more time consuming. After finishing the longerons, I: Cut the 3/8" foam to match the masonite while flat; marked the bottom side of the masonite where the formers would mate; ran a bead of caulk along the mate-lines and stuck a sheet of 4-mil plastic (hardware store) [3" oversize] to the caulk; then screwed the masonite down per plans. The caulk will, I HOPE, seal the screws {will let you know either way}. This past week I laid in and shapped the foam and am currently to the point of cutting the fiberglass. Would have gotten that done Sunday, but Saturday night's basement flood was a bit of a diversion {can we say emergency}. I may have to wait a couple weeks while the wife settles down enough to let me go back out to the shop (going to take at least that long to dry the carpet). -: That's as far as I am at the moment. I had planned to "attempt" to do complete layup with top logeron (incl. the 4 layers of UNI); but your comments are making me re-consider; maybe do it all. How in the heck would you keep the bottom longeron in place?; The top longeron is straight and I was going to simply use light clamping to keep it from sliding to center (applied after 3 - 4 PSI is pulled). I suspect the vacc bag will not be able to hold the curvature of the bottom longeron. Any ideas? The LWX and LWY plus other rear layups should be a piece of cake relative to the longerons. Larry Schuler MKIV-#500 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:19:44 -0600 (MDT) From: "aka Mr. Radon" Subject: COZY: Chapter 5 part list. Am I not reading chapter five right. In the plans it calls for one sheet of 1" X 24" X 48" Urathane foam, but I can only see this being used in Chapter 14 for the spar. Am I right or is it used in this chapter? ROY ============================================================================= Roy H. Grossinger- ME grossinr@rastro.colorado.edu Cozy Mk IV #503; Chapter 5 ROY_GROSSINGER@Radon-hq.ccmail.compuserve.com CU's Go - 4; Hull Layup "A man's destiny is his character" | ___ | |---------(>-<)---------| http://www.abwam.com/grossing / ~~~ \ o/ \o by mta bnr.ca in /PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/; Relayed; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 13:11:09 -0400 by /PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/; Relayed; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 13:10:54 -0400 by /PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/; Relayed; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 13:10:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 13:10:00 -0400 [/PRMD=BNR/ADMD=TELECOM.CANADA/C=CA/;bcars735.b.759:27.05.96.17.10.54] From: "michael (m.j.) anderson" Subject: COZY: Fuel Site Gauges Does anything need to be done different then what the plans say in chapter five for preparing for Vance's fuel site gauges? Michael Anderson mikej@nortel.com Cozy Mark IV #484 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 17:21:05 -0400 From: PBurkha238@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel Site Gauges In a message dated 96-06-27 13:19:40 EDT, you write: >To: cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com > >Does anything need to be done different then what the plans say in >chapter five for preparing for Vance's fuel site gauges? > > I recessed the foam a bit to make the gauges flush with the fuselage sides when finally installed. I used a little micro to finish it off ... looks good Paul Burkhardt Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 11:17:35 -0400 From: william l kleb Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel Site Gauges Paul Burkhardt wrote: > I recessed the foam a bit to make the gauges flush with the fuselage sides > when finally installed. clarification/verification requested: in the stock fuel gauge set-up the little window is canted so the human turning around from the front seat can more readily see the level. on vance's gauges, it seems like the canting is unnecessary since the bubble allows nearly 180 degree sight of the fuel level. is this true, or should one still make a _canted_ depression to put vance's fuel gauges in? --- bill kleb (w.l.kleb@larc.nasa.gov) 72 bellanca 7gcbc (citabria) 99 cz4 -> aerocanard From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel Site Gauges (fwd) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 96 11:36:13 EDT bil kleb writes: >on vance's gauges, it seems like the canting is unnecessary since >the bubble allows nearly 180 degree sight of the fuel level. > >is this true, or should one still make a _canted_ depression to put >vance's fuel gauges in? I have the VA gauges, but haven't installed them yet. I made my fuselage sides to the plans, with the canted windows. I think you could probably install the VA gauges in a flat window (no cant) and still see them OK, but I think (after examining the VA gauges and installation instructions) that you'd get a better view of them if you made the fuselage sides per plans (with the cant) and then installed the VA gauges. My $0.02. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Mon, 1 Jul 96 10:00:04 -0800 From: Eric_Westland@msvl.wednet.edu (Eric Westland) Organization: Marysville School Dist. Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel Site Gauges > Does anything need to be done different then what the plans say in > chapter five for preparing for Vance's fuel site gauges? > Mine are in and I installed them in the per-plans opening. I could have cut them dowm some to fit more flush, but I opted to have them stick out a little to give me the largest possible gluing surface so they won't leak (they didn't). One consideration that I have not heard mentioned so far is that you may want to make the opening taller so when you drill through the fuselage side so fuel can get to the guage, you are not drilling through the foam - this would allow fuel to migrate through the foam and create a leak. I had to enlarge my openings on the bottom side so I was drilling only through glass. -eric -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sent via ExpressNet/SMTP(tm), Internet Gateway of the Gods! ExpressNet/SMTP (c)1994-95 Delphic Software, Inc. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 21:06:19 From: JRaerocad@gnn.com (Jeff Russell) Subject: Re: COZY: Fuel Site Gauges Bill Kleb wrote: >on vance's gauges, it seems like the canting is unnecessary since >the bubble allows nearly 180 degree sight of the fuel level. >is this true, or should one still make a _canted_ depression to put >vance's fuel gauges in? Mine are installed flat in a depression that is solid glass (no cant) I can see both of them just fine in flight just looking back both ways. Thats all I did. Works great AeroCad Inc. Jeff Russell 1445 Crater Lane Yadkinville, NC. 27055 910-961-2238 E-mail: JRaerocad@gnn.com From: "Steve Campbell" Subject: RE: COZY: Upper Longeron layups Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 09:33:22 On Wed, 17 Jul 96 09:48:54 -0400, ratencio@coastalnet.com wrote... > Last night I did the 4 layer UNI layup on the upper longerons. I was >not sure how to lay the cloth on the fwd end of the small doubler at the >fwd end. I kinda bent and twisted and squished and cussed and prayed and >microed the corners and made the cloth bend but it's not very pretty. >Could someone explain how their layup was done in this area? Did you use >one long piece of cloth for each layer or a few smaller ones? This >curious mind would like to know. TIA. > >----------------------------------------------------------- >Rob Atencio >Cozy Mk IV #496 >New Bern, NC >E-Mail: ratencio@coastalnet.com >----------------------------------------------------------- > Having had the pleasure (;-)) of doing this job twice, I can tell you that the squishing and twisting method works pretty well. You simply can't get the glass to follow the extreme contours around the doubler. Put it in as best you can. You can use wax paper and weights to try to force it to follow the contours, but you still wind up with tortured glass work in this area. Steve Cozy # 473, Chapter 10 **************************************** Stephen A. Campbell Associate Professor, EE University of Minnesota ***************************************** From: ratencio@coastalnet.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 09:48:54 -0400 Subject: COZY: Upper Longeron layups Last night I did the 4 layer UNI layup on the upper longerons. I was not sure how to lay the cloth on the fwd end of the small doubler at the fwd end. I kinda bent and twisted and squished and cussed and prayed and microed the corners and made the cloth bend but it's not very pretty. Could someone explain how their layup was done in this area? Did you use one long piece of cloth for each layer or a few smaller ones? This curious mind would like to know. TIA. ----------------------------------------------------------- Rob Atencio Cozy Mk IV #496 New Bern, NC E-Mail: ratencio@coastalnet.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: RE: COZY: Upper Longeron layups (fwd) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 11:10:44 EDT Rob Atencio wrote: >>Could someone explain how their layup was done in this area? Did you use >>one long piece of cloth for each layer or a few smaller ones? Stephen A. Campbell wrote: >Having had the pleasure (;-)) of doing this job twice, I can tell you that >the squishing and twisting method works pretty well. You simply can't get >the glass to follow the extreme contours around the doubler. Put it in as >best you can. You can use wax paper and weights to try to force it to >follow the contours, but you still wind up with tortured glass work in this >area. I hate to tell you guys (and Nat certainly doesn't :-) ) but I spent the better part of an hour doing exactly what you describe here, only to find out that IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER!!!!! When you get to Chapter 7, I think, you make the cutouts for the canard to fit into the fuselage. Guess what part of the fuselage you cut COMPLETELY off? I have the two forward ends of the forward fuselage doublers sitting on my desk here at work, attached to a small square of the sides and the ears on F-22. AAARRRGGGHHH!!! I really wish the plans said not to concern yourself with getting the glass to lay flat in this area, since it gets cut off later. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:48:07 -0700 From: Michael Antares Subject: COZY: Upper Longeron layups To add a suggestion: I have found in several instances that I could get glass to do what it did not want to do on its own by using strong thread. The thread, or the groove that it leaves, is completely invisible. This worked for me especially when I did the NACA scoop. It doesn't work to well on concave! curves but then you can't have everything... Michael, 6077 Old Redwood Highway Penngrove CA 94951 707.664.1171 Cozy#413 Finished through chap 14 except chap 13. Currently on 16 and 24. From: ratencio@coastalnet.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 07:34:01 -0400 Subject: RE: COZY: Upper Longeron layups (fwd) In <9607171510.AA18530@hpwarhw.an.hp.com>, on 07/17/96 at 11:10 AM, "Marc J. Zeitlin" said: >I hate to tell you guys (and Nat certainly doesn't :-) ) but I spent the >better part of an hour doing exactly what you describe here, only to find >out that IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER!!!!! I went and looked at the photos in chp 6 and there is a picture showing the F-28 installation which clearly shows the glass not even reaching the end of the longeron. And chp 7 has a picture showing this area with a backsaw going through it. After looking at my final product in this area, I was certain that the glass could not really be doing much as far as strength goes, what with those near 90 degree bends. It was good knowing that this gets removed later, even with the time spent laying it up. Thanks for the info Marc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Rob Atencio Cozy Mk IV #496 Chp 6 New Bern, NC E-Mail: ratencio@coastalnet.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 21:08:59 -0400 From: TMKPIDA@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: COZY: Upper Longeron layups (fwd) ME TOO! Some of my best glass workmanship was cut-off here. I now consider it Zen and the art of Cozy building. Great conversation pieces for my Cozy sample pieces box. p.s. Same for 2427 peeling and same solution reached. TMK #248 From: "Steve Campbell" Subject: RE: COZY: Chapter 5 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:54:52 On Mon, 29 Jul 96 08:51:24 est, lschuler@cellular.uscc.com wrote... > Thought I was done with chapter 5. Re-read the chapter just to make > sure I hadn't missed something last night. I did. Forgot to flip the > sides over and remove the 5 minute epoxy blobs. What a mess! > > Plans say to use a sharp wood chissle..... Yahhh, Right!!!!!! > > Tried slowly scraping some of the blobs with wood chissle until they > were about flush with the foam; still seems like epoxy blobs will > cause finishing problems later..... > > Some pulled little chunks of foam out (none more than about 1/32" to > 1/16" deep); but enough to make another filling problem. > > Help!!!!!! I would like to have a decent looking finish without using > a 100 gallons of filler later on. > > Couple of Ideas so far; both involve removing ALL remaining 5 min > epoxy blobs: > > 1. Route out these spots to half the depth of the foam (about 3/16") > and glue in (dabs of 5-min epoxy on bottom only) pieces of the 3/8" > pvc to match the hole size, then sand flush. Seems like it should > work since foam is mostly stressed in compression anyway so 5-minute > epoxy is ok here. > > 2. Fill "divots" with micro (or hard shell alcohol mix) without > routing; sand flush after cure. Compressive strenght should still be > graeter than the original foam. > > Any other ideas? > > Thanks, > > Larry Schuler > MKIV-#500 > Both work, do which ever you find easier. I normally just fill this stuff in with some dry micro. It is surprisingly light. I have also found that a hot glue gun works much better than 5 minute epoxy, both for temporary applications and for sticking pieces of foam together. Steve **************************************** Stephen A. Campbell Associate Professor, EE University of Minnesota ***************************************** Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:43:02 -0700 From: Michael Antares Subject: COZY: Chap 5 I have found that as the months of construction have gone by, I have become much more relaxed about divots of foam being removed. It is very easy to fill them in with dry micro, even when they are fairly deep, and it doesn't show when they are glassed over later. One comment on the hot melt--I personally am reluctant to use anything other than epoxies or Bondo on any surface which is going to be glassed or filled and finished later (which means just about everything!). This includes temporary holddowns. I don't have any hard facts to back up my concern, I guess just my conservative nature... Michael 6077 Old Redwood Highway Penngrove CA 94951 707.664.1171 Cozy#413 Finished through chap 14 except chap 13. Currently starting chap 19. From: RJMANC@cris.com Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 01:19:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: COZY: bubble in glass I glassed the side of my fuselage this weekend ... I check and double-checked the layup.. It was perfect.. So I let it start to cure and my wife and went and watched a movie.. I came back to it a while later and AAAAHHHHGGGG there was a bubble in the rear left side .... It's aprox the size of a dime or smaller.. What do I do cut it out and re glass the area don't worry and move on or ect ect???? Any suggestions out there.... Thank you Robert Mancuso Los Banos Ca (209)826-6814 MkIV 537 Completed chpt 4 Working on chpt 5 00 \______O00O0______/ | | | O 0 O #537 Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:05:35 -0400 From: Ed Boykin Subject: Re: COZY: bubble in glass At 01:19 AM 8/12/96 -0400, you wrote: > > I glassed the side of my fuselage this weekend ... I check and >double-checked the layup.. It was perfect.. So I let it start to cure and my >wife and went and watched a movie.. I came back to it a while later and >AAAAHHHHGGGG there was a bubble in the rear left side .... It's aprox the >size of a dime or smaller.. What do I do cut it out and re glass the area >don't worry and move on or ect ect???? Any suggestions out there.... Try drilling two small holes in the bubble. (be CAREFULL to only drill into the bubble and not beyond it). Get a syringe with a small tip on it and put some premixed epoxy in it. You then intect the epoxy into the bubble until ALL of the air come out of the second hole and epoxy begins to run out..This si agood fix for SMALL bubbles like your.Anything bigger than a quarter or so should be fixed anopther way... Ed Boykin aviator@mindspring.com From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: bubble in glass (fwd) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 14:40:49 EDT Robert Mancuso writes: >........ I came back to it a while later and >AAAAHHHHGGGG there was a bubble in the rear left side .... It's aprox the >size of a dime or smaller.. What do I do cut it out and re glass the area You can cut out the bubble, sand the area immediately around it (fair the glass into the foam/micro), and glass over it with a 1" overlap onto the surrounding area. Not a big deal - I had the same thing happen. I believe the instructions for dealing with problems like this are buried in Chapter 3 somewhere - I know they're in the instructions someplace. Good luck. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: "Rob Cherney" Organization: Ellicott City, Maryland Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:49:07 -0400 Subject: Re: COZY: bubble in glass Robert Mancuso wrote: > I glassed the side of my fuselage this weekend ... I check and > double-checked the layup.. It was perfect.. So I let it start to cure and my > wife and went and watched a movie.. I came back to it a while later and > AAAAHHHHGGGG there was a bubble in the rear left side .... It's aprox the > size of a dime or smaller.. What do I do cut it out and re glass the area > don't worry and move on or ect ect???? Any suggestions out there.... This is what I've done in the past: I drill two small holes on either side, within the edges of the bubble. In one hole, I inject pure epoxy with a hypodermic syringe. I watch for epoxy to escape from the other hole. I then put a layer of peel ply on top of this, followed by a weight or clamp. Let it cure, remove the peel ply, and you're done. No patches. Rob- +--------------------------------------------------------+ |Robert Cherney Home Phone: (410)465-5598 | |Ellicott City, Maryland e-mail: cherney@clark.net | +--------------------------------------------------------+ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 00:57:20 -0400 From: EWestland@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: bubble in glass Robert, What Marc had to say is good, I would just add one thought. Mark it so you don't forget about it, but wait to repair it until you are ceratin it is not an area you are going to cut away later any ways. Also, it may be an area that gets additional layups when it would be easier to repair at the same time. eric Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:14:07 -0400 From: Fritzx2@aol.com Subject: COZY: RE:Bubble in Glass >Robert Mancuso writes: >........ I came back to it a while later and >AAAAHHHHGGGG there was a bubble in the rear left side .... It's aprox the >size of a dime or smaller.. What do I do cut it out and re glass the area Since I deleted Roberts message I'll hijack the intro from Marc's reply. I think that the instructions say that a small bubble (I think that a dime size meets the criteria for small) located in a non critical area as defined in the instructions can be repaired by drilling two small holes on opposite sides of the bubble and injecting epoxy into on hole with a needle and allowing the air to escape through the other hole. In addition to the wing and canard areas, I believe that 10 inches from the canard attach points and 10 inches from the firewall are also considered critical areas. John Fritz Fritzx2@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 12:25:44 -0400 From: DFinn7971@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: bubble in glass In a message dated 96-08-15 00:10:15 EDT, aviator@mindspring.com (Ed Boykin) writes: << Try drilling two small holes in the bubble. (be CAREFULL to only drill into the bubble and not beyond it). Get a syringe with a small tip on it and put some premixed epoxy in it. >> I found that the syringes used for giving oral medication to children work real good for this. I got a couple when my daughter was in the hospital and the work slick. Problem is I figure they cost me about $85,000. There was a fellow selling them in the /Fly-Market at OSH this year at three for a buck. I suspect you can get them at any drug store. Dick Finn DFINN7971@AOL.COM Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 21:01:58 -0700 From: wkasty@ix.netcom.com (william g kastenholz) Subject: COZY: Chapter 5 top longeron layup I have read how more than one builder has had a problem laying up the 4 UND plys on the top longerons. Mostly, people complained about getting the plys to stay down around the front doubler. Did anyone have a problem with the rear doubler? Do you need to glass this far back?? The plans say to do the entire length of the longerons. Bill Kastenholz wkasty@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 01:38:07 -0400 From: EWestland@aol.com Subject: Re: COZY: Chapter 5 top longeron layup > I have read how more than one builder has had a problem laying up the 4 > UND plys on the top longerons. Mostly, people complained about getting > the plys to stay down around the front doubler. Did anyone have a > problem with the rear doubler? Do you need to glass this far back?? The > plans say to do the entire length of the longerons. > > Bill Kastenholz wkasty@ix.netcom.com Same as the front, don't sweat this. Just like the front, they are longer than you will end up needing and the ends will get cut away when you install the canard/upper firewall, but not too much longer in the rear so glass the entire length. If you goof it up somehow, you can always re-do that local area (1" overlap). "Looks" don't count as more glass will go over it when you install your turtleback and spar. Just check for air bubbles as it cures and/or seal with Saran Wrap. Eric Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 18:02:13 est From: "Larry Schuler" Subject: COZY: Chapter 5 top longeron layup Yes all the way back (end-to-end). The rear doublers were much easier due to the transition length. Don't worry too much about the front doublers. If it isn't too late, look ahead to where the doublers get cut at the front of F28. That double 90 degree corner at the front of the front doubler will be cut off later. Larry Schuler MKIV-#500 ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: COZY: Chapter 5 top longeron layup Author: wkasty@ix.netcom.com (william g kastenholz) at INTERNET Date: 8/27/96 12:01 AM I have read how more than one builder has had a problem laying up the 4 UND plys on the top longerons. Mostly, people complained about getting the plys to stay down around the front doubler. Did anyone have a problem with the rear doubler? Do you need to glass this far back?? The plans say to do the entire length of the longerons. Bill Kastenholz wkasty@ix.netcom.com Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 09:51:30 -0500 From: "David Radabaugh" Subject: COZY: Chapter 5: Positioning of Stringer LWX, LWY The position of stringer LWX is clearly shown in Fig.14 in Ch.5. In Fig.16 the stringer LWX is positioned parallel to the edge of the spacer used to build up the aft end of the fuselage side. This drawing has perplexed me because when I position the stringers according to Fig.14, LWX is not parallel to the edge of the spacer as shown in Fig.16. In my case, the distance between LWX and the edge of the spacer widens as you move up and to the right along LWX (about 1" at the lower left end to about 1-3/4" at the upper right end). I do not think this deviation is meaningful but I would like to get feedback from those who have been through this before proceeding. Thanks for your input. Regards, David Radabaugh #172 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 11:17:25 est From: "Larry Schuler" Subject: COZY: Chapter 5: Positioning of Stringer LWX, LWY I noticed the same thing. I cut my spacer to be parallel to the stringer. Can't say at the moment if that was the right thing to do (I am just beginning chapter 6). Either way, I'm sure that the stringer position is the important structural item here and the spacer's edge orientation ends up as a cosmetic. FWW. Larry Schuler #500 From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: Chapter 5: LWX positioning issues Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 11:44:03 EDT David Radabaugh wrote: >........ LWX is not >parallel to the edge of the spacer as shown in Fig.16. In my case, the >distance between LWX and the edge of the spacer widens as you move up and to >the right along LWX (about 1" at the lower left end to about 1-3/4" at the >upper right end). Assuming that the "spacer" you're referring to (I don't have my plans in front of me) is the 3/4" thick tan urethane sloped to blend into the 3/8" blue foam, then the LWX position is the important one. Shaping the spacer is less critical. Larry Schuler wrote: >I noticed the same thing. I cut my spacer to be parallel to the >stringer. Can't say at the moment if that was the right thing to do (I >am just beginning chapter 6). As Larry guesses below, the LWX positioning is more important to the structure. >Either way, I'm sure that the stringer position is the important >structural item here and the spacer's edge orientation ends up as a >cosmetic. This is correct. There are some layups in Chapter 9 (I believe) which connect the front LG bulkhead to the fuselage sides and which cover the spacer, but 1/2" - 3/4" one way or the other on the spacer wouldn't make much of a difference. Larry Schuler also wrote: >...... Also think the highest point of the LWX >stringer (must be at an angle due to slope of the fuselage side) should >be flush with the bottom of the spar. This, I think, is incorrect, if I interpret your statement the way you intended it. Please see: http://www.ultranet.com/~marcz/cozy_mkIV/chapters/chap06_1.html for a picture of what my LWX, spar cutout, and bulkheads look like during Chapter 6. Unless I'm nuts, the plans show something along the lines of: -----------------------------------| -----------------------------------| Upper Longeron | | | Spar Cutout /| -----------------------------------| / /| LWX / / | Bulkhead / / | / / | You should be able to see the top point of LWX sticking up to the rear of the spar cutout, and the lower point of the rear edge of LWX approximately flush with the lower front corner of the spar cutout. I believe all this is shown on the plans - at least I think that's how I positioned everything. My $0.04. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 16:38:53 est From: "Larry Schuler" Subject: COZY: RE:Chapter 6 OOPS!!!! The correct reference below should be to the LWY stringer, NOT LWX. Thanks for catching that for me Marc. Larry Schuler Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 05:02:51 -0700 From: wkasty@ix.netcom.com (william g kastenholz) Subject: COZY: longerons chapter 5 Hello Cozyites, I'm not one to expound upon my own errors normally, but the openness of this group has helped me out significantly already. When I layed up the longerons together the book says to "let the excess extend equally at both ends." I did this and measured the 5 inches from the front end to place the doubler. When you attach the longerons to the sides the book says "Let the longerons overhang slightly at the forward end and the remaining excess extend aft." Well I did this, fitting the longerons to the sides with the least gaps. Now that I have assembled the sides to the bulkheads, I realized that F-28 gets placed 5.9 inches back from the front of F-22. My doubler is .7 inches short of this point. I take responsibility for not thinking ahead, but the plans could have been more specific. My plan is to cut an extra piece of doubler and flox it in place and cover it with 4 layers of UND. The alignment pin gets drilled 1.5 inches into the doubler so it will still go about .75 inches into the actual doubler. Any comments on my boo-boo or repair plan? Bill Kastenholz wkasty@ix.netcom.com 216-774-8133 Oberlin, Oh From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: COZY: longerons chapter 5 (fwd) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 11:32:03 EDT Bill Kastenholz writes: >....... My plan is to cut an extra piece of >doubler and flox it in place and cover it with 4 layers of UND. The >alignment pin gets drilled 1.5 inches into the doubler so it will still >go about .75 inches into the actual doubler. Any comments on my boo-boo >or repair plan? Not a big deal - your repair plan should be more than adequate. The alignment pin takes almost no load, and your fix will be as strong as the original anyway. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:14:37 -0500 From: william l kleb Organization: NASA Langley Research Center Subject: COZY: chap 5: rear longeron doublers just for the record: figure 3 in chapter five shows the rear longeron doublers 15" from the end of the fjc jig. i can't recall if i followed this precisely or not; but when it came time to mate the sides with the temporary firewall in chapter 6, my doublers _barely_ made it through the firewall. --- bil kleb (w.l.kleb@larc.nasa.gov) 72 bellanca 7gcbc 9? cz4 -> aerocanard Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 17:43:10 -0500 From: Paul Burkhardt Subject: COZY: Upper Longerons my doublers _barely_ made it through the firewall. Reading the above post reminded me of the upper longerons. I realize that there installed early on in the process and I'm sure most of us have already installed them as per plans. However for what its worth this is what I ran into. when it came time to install the turtle back permanetly and thus do inside layups to the upper longeron. I noticed the the upper longeron doubler stuck way out. the forward corner the worst. I wound up tapering the the entire longeron doubler from the forward corner back. this made it possible to bid tape with a decent radius. Thus I would suggest that the doubler is tapered before glassing. I'm not even sure of the purpose of the doubler as the turtle back would fit just nicely without it. I made my own as per plans.(turtle back)Paul Burkhardt