Date: Tue, 9 May 95 13:53:03 PDT From: "Michael Antares" Subject: hints... Perhaps many of you have already figured this out but just in case... I discovered that in many instances where it is necessary to place a pre-cut, pre-wetted fiberglass piece, it is much easier to do if you enclose both sides in wax paper rather than just one as is suggested in the plans. I lay out one piece of paper, then draw cut lines on it with a broad felt marker (and include a center fold line for corner tapes), wet out the appropriate number of layers on top, somewhat oversize, put another piece of wax paper over the top of this and then cut out the required pieces with scissors. I find this works much better than only having wax paper on the bottom. I don't have issues with the UNI glass fraying, and it is easy to carry the strips and to trial fit them. Once I am satisfied with the fit, I pull off the bottom wax paper, press the glass into place and remove the top. Michael Antares Software/Hardware Systems Engineering mantares@crl.com Santa Rosa, California ; Tue, 9 May 1995 18:13:11 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 May 95 17:10:50 CDT From: qtdalls!ken%qtdalls@uunet.uu.net (Ken Reiter) Subject: Re: hints... NOTE DO NOT USE WAX PAPER OR WAX PAPER CUPS! It is possible for the WAX to stay with the epoxy. This would ruin your whole day! USE PLASTIC WRAP IN PLACE OF WAX PAPER. One little note: Keep the plastic wrap in the refrigertor - this keep it from sticking to itself when you are trying to get it to lay flat on the table. > From uunet!qcktrn!crl.com!mantares Tue May 9 16:57:04 1995 > Return-Path: > Date: Tue, 9 May 95 13:53:03 PDT > From: "Michael Antares" > Subject: hints... > To: "Cozy group" > X-Mailer: VersaTerm Link v1.1.4 > Content-Length: 1020 > X-Lines: 16 > > Perhaps many of you have already figured this out but just in case... > > I discovered that in many instances where it is necessary to place a > pre-cut, pre-wetted fiberglass piece, it is much easier to do if you enclose > both sides in wax paper rather than just one as is suggested in the plans. > I lay out one piece of paper, then draw cut lines on it with a broad felt > marker (and include a center fold line for corner tapes), wet out the > appropriate number of layers on top, somewhat oversize, put another piece of > wax paper over the top of this and then cut out the required pieces with > scissors. I find this works much better than only having wax paper on the > bottom. I don't have issues with the UNI glass fraying, and it is easy to > carry the strips and to trial fit them. Once I am satisfied with the fit, I > pull off the bottom wax paper, press the glass into place and remove the top. > > Michael Antares Software/Hardware Systems Engineering > mantares@crl.com Santa Rosa, California > Date: Tue, 9 May 95 19:34:38 PDT From: "Michael Antares" Subject: hints... > > >NOTE > >DO NOT USE WAX PAPER OR WAX PAPER CUPS! > >It is possible for the WAX to stay with the epoxy. This would ruin your whole >day! USE PLASTIC WRAP IN PLACE OF WAX PAPER. > >One little note: >Keep the plastic wrap in the refrigertor - this keep it from sticking to >itself when you are trying to get it to lay flat on the table. > Interesting--I have heard that you shouldn't use wax paper cups but did not translate that into wax paper transports. Nat suggests the use of wax paper in his instruction manual which is why I started to use it and then went from just one side to both sides. But you certainly could be right about NOT using it. I can say that at least in the short term I haven't had any problem with the epoxy--are there things that happen in the longer term as a result of the wax? Could it be that in using a wax cup you would be actively scraping the sides of the cup and mixing the wax into the expoxy whereas in using the wax paper only to hold and transport the wet glass you are not likely to transfer wax into the epoxy? Michael Antares Software/Hardware Systems Engineering mantares@crl.com Santa Rosa, California ; Wed, 10 May 1995 09:58:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 95 08:55:42 CDT From: qtdalls!ken%qtdalls@uunet.uu.net (Ken Reiter) Subject: Re: hints... > From uunet!qcktrn!crl.com!mantares Tue May 9 22:13:03 1995 > Return-Path: > Date: Tue, 9 May 95 19:34:38 PDT > From: "Michael Antares" > Subject: hints... > To: "Cozy group" > X-Mailer: VersaTerm Link v1.1.4 > Content-Length: 1190 > X-Lines: 27 > > > > > > >NOTE > > > >DO NOT USE WAX PAPER OR WAX PAPER CUPS! > > > >It is possible for the WAX to stay with the epoxy. This would ruin your whole > >day! USE PLASTIC WRAP IN PLACE OF WAX PAPER. > > > >One little note: > >Keep the plastic wrap in the refrigertor - this keep it from sticking to > >itself when you are trying to get it to lay flat on the table. > > > Interesting--I have heard that you shouldn't use wax paper cups but did not > translate that into wax paper transports. Nat suggests the use of wax paper > in his instruction manual which is why I started to use it and then went > from just one side to both sides. But you certainly could be right about > NOT using it. I can say that at least in the short term I haven't had any > problem with the epoxy--are there things that happen in the longer term as a > result of the wax? Could it be that in using a wax cup you would be There is no long term issue that I know about - the wax would be encased in the epoxy. You are right about the wax cup mixing - this would mix wax from the sides and bottom of the cup into the epoxy. On the wax paper matter - alot of people use a hair dryer to wet out the last bit of glass - well you know what would happen to the wax due to the heat of the dryer. I made a lot of bid tape myself with the plastic wrap and one can use the hair dryer sparely on the plastic wrap - but not on the wax paper. > actively scraping the sides of the cup and mixing the wax into the expoxy > whereas in using the wax paper only to hold and transport the wet glass you > are not likely to transfer wax into the epoxy? > > > Michael Antares Software/Hardware Systems Engineering > mantares@crl.com Santa Rosa, California > Date: Wed, 10 May 95 08:05:10 PDT From: "Michael Antares" Subject: hints Fortunately, I never have used the hair dryer when using wax paper, but undoubtably you are right, that could well get you into trouble. Thanks for your input... Michael Antares Software/Hardware Systems Engineering mantares@crl.com Santa Rosa, California Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 11:20:46 -0400 From: SidLloyd@aol.com Subject: Re: hints In a message dated 95-05-10 11:08:13 EDT, mantares@crl.com writes: >Fortunately, I never have used the hair dryer when using wax paper, >but >undoubtably you are right, that could well get you into trouble. >Thanks for >your input... I use plastic or saran wrap. If I use saran wrap, I put it on a layer of wax paper first. I was told not to use wax paper directly in contact with epoxy also. I was told it decreases the strength of the epoxy and can cause other laminate layers not to adhere. Sid LLoyd Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 19:10:11 -0400 From: KSPREUER@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Re:Hints --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Re:Hints Date: 95-05-13 18:59:35 EDT From: K SPREUER After building a Cozy 3 place and into my fourth year on a Mk IV I advise the following on the subject of using waxed paper for tapes and to transfer pre-wet lay-ups to the project. I agree with the warning about waxed paper. I also tried the suggession to use plastic wrap. I didn't like that at all. It wrinkles and doesn't stay put. What I have found works best is aluminum foil. I tape it to the bench, layout what ever shape I need with a felt marker (remember to make it mirror image if it isn't symetrical) an then wet it out. The glass becomes clear enough to see the felt marker, so you can cut the glass and foil at once using a pizza cutter. Then just pick it up an press it in place and peel off the tin foil. Keith Date: Sat, 13 May 95 19:04:16 PDT From: "Michael Antares" Subject: Wax paper... Just wondering if anyone has talked to Nat re: the use of wax paper. He mentions using it throughout the construction manual. Is there a news letter where he has changed his mind--or was he just wrong in his instructions? The one disadvantage I see in using foil is that you can only use it on one side of the glass. The advantage of using the wax paper on both sides that I found was that 1) you can see through the top layer to see the cut lines on the bottom layer, 2) the glass cuts more easily without wanting to skew out of position or lose strands in the case of UND glass and 3) it is easier to handle until you are ready to put it in place including creating a fold which makes it easier to install in corners. Michael Antares Software/Hardware Systems Engineering mantares@crl.com Santa Rosa, California Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 20:51:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: back from Germany - Eric W. address Marc, Thanks for making the address change, hope your trip went well. I wish I could say that I was glad to read all of the old mail, but the wax paper discussion has me bummed as I have gone through at least a roll of the stuff over the last three years. I have always used just one side, so I suppose it would just be the "outside" that is contaminated, but I have also used a hairdryer. I'm somewhat lost as what to do about it, does anyone have a way to test for contamination (can you see it on the surface?) and if heated, would it be likely to contaminate all of the plies? Other than that, I have been busy building metal parts from Section II of the plans. It looks like I will save a few hundred bucks if I don't count my time and your fingers don't get sticky! I'll write more about it later, right now I am headed for the basement to look for wax. Eric p.s. I thought you might like to know that Wicks messed up for the first time in 3 years last week - they forgot to send the second box of my order. I called Janet who second-day aired it to me for no charge:-) and later called to apologize for the company (this was only a $150 order). Date: Wed, 17 May 95 9:47:47 EDT Subject: Re: wax paper Eric writes; >Thanks for making the address change, hope your trip went well. I wish I >could say that I was glad to read all of the old mail, but the wax paper >discussion has me bummed as I have gone through at least a roll of the >stuff over the last three years. I have always used just one side, so I >suppose it would just be the "outside" that is contaminated, but I have >also used a hairdryer. I'm somewhat lost as what to do about it, does >anyone have a way to test for contamination (can you see it on the >surface?) and if heated, would it be likely to contaminate all of the plies? We've had a lot of discussion about the POTENTIAL problems of using wax paper, especially with a hair dryer, and the warnings SEEM to make sense. However, I'm wondering if anyone has done (or knows of any) experiments showing any decrease in strength or adhesion when wax paper was used. I certainly haven't heard any real data, or even any ANECDOTAL evidence (remembering that the plural of anecdote is NOT "data" :-) ). That's not to say we should be cavalier about the possible problems, but that we shouldn't panic. I've used wax paper on some layups, and even used a hair dryer with them as well, and after applying the layups, sqeegeeing them out, peel plying them, and sanding, I certainly can't tell the difference between them and non-wax papered layups. I will certainly use aluminum foil or saran wrap in the future when I can, but I'm not going to redo my fuselage because I used wax paper. Given that Nat actually RECOMMENDS using wax paper, and he's got a couple of planes flying, I'd lean more towards the "it's probably not an issue" side, realizing that Rutan says "don't use it" (and he's also obviously got a couple of planes flying :-) ) and so MINIMIZE the use of wax paper overall, and refrain from its use in stress sensitive areas. my $0.02 -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Wed, 17 May 95 08:22:43 PDT From: "Michael Antares" Subject: Wax paper I have to second Marc's comments. Since reading the negative comments about wax paper, I have done some test sections. There is no evidence IN THE SHORT TERM that anything bad is happening at least visually. The epoxy sets up hard and scratches white. If there are bad effects it must not show up until later. Personally I have doubts that using wax paper is a bad thing to do. In my mind there is quite a difference between actively scraping the sides of a waxed cup and mixing the residue into the epoxy, and laying up on wax paper. There is no doubt that wax is getting mixed into the epoxy on one hand and quite a bit of doubt in the other. I also would like to have some hard facts, including some from knowledgeable chemists, about what the wax does to the epoxy. Are all waxes the same? Are we talking about parrafin in both cases, cups and paper? And as Marc says, since Nat recommends the use of it throughout his manual, either there is a difference of opinion or he just doesn't know. His planes certainly aren't falling apart! Michael Antares Software/Hardware Systems Engineering mantares@crl.com Santa Rosa, California Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 18:31:29 -0400 From: RonKidd@aol.com Subject: Re: Wax paper I used Waxed paper extensivly & w/ hair dryer (tapes etc.) throughout my 3 place. Only after I was finished did the warnings come up. I certainly would not encourage anyone to do it, having been advised otherwise, but I wouldn't worry too much about it. I have never had any signs of delam in 450 hrs. of flight. Regards, RON From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: Wax paper Date: Wed, 17 May 95 17:28:30 MDT All this talk about wax paper has got me thinking about something that's got the desirable properties of wax paper without the potential to contaminate the resin with wax. And no, it's not saran wrap or aluminum foil. The main objection I have to using Saran Wrap is that it is too thin to work with and has no mechanical strength. When I was first setting up my shop, I hung 4-mil clear plastic around it to shield the rest of the basement from dust. I had some left over and found it to be excellent for using under the bulkhead layups. At first I had tried to use wax paper under the bulkhead layups but I had to tape several sheets together to get complete coverage so that the micro and excess epoxy that I squeegied from the layup didn't drip down and glue the bulkhead to the table. It comes on a roll and is folded about 8 times, so it is easy to store and can be cut to virtually any size you need. Clear 4 mil plastic is available at any home improvement store and it's got a lot of other uses. I think I paid around $15 for a 20'x25' roll (500 square feet). Lee Devlin