(Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rXVmv-000vJUC; Thu, 26 Jan 95 09:07 CST (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0rXVmd-000uJnC; Thu, 26 Jan 95 09:06 CST Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 09:06:47 CST From: Sid=Lloyd%NASE%NA=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Subject: Bondo on 2427 Be very careful using bondo on Hexcel 2427 (and for that matter on Saf-T-Poxy II). When I attached my winglets to my wing, I used some rather large blobs of bondo. There was either a chemical reaction or a heat reaction. The area where the bondo secured a wooden brace to the winglet (2427) delaminated outward and formed a bubble about 1/4" high. I will now have to sand it down and repair it. On the wing (Saf-T-Poxy II) it created a delamination that I will be able to fill with pure epoxy via a syringe. Sid Lloyd Cozy IV Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 13:30:14 EST Subject: Bondo on 2427 > >Be very careful using bondo on Hexcel 2427 (and for that matter on Saf-T-Poxy >II). When I attached my winglets to my wing, I used some rather large blobs >of bondo. There was either a chemical reaction or a heat reaction. The area >where the bondo secured a wooden brace to the winglet (2427) delaminated >outward and formed a bubble about 1/4" high. I will now have to sand it down >and repair it. On the wing (Saf-T-Poxy II) it created a delamination that I >will be able to fill with pure epoxy via a syringe. Interesting. I never had any problem with bondo and the ORIGINAL Safety-Poxy, but maybe something has changed. I'll be careful this time, given the warning. Thanks. (Your supposition about heat may in fact be the problem. A large blob of bondo can get VERY hot - hot enough to burn skin. Ask me how I know :-) ). -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 23:20:10 -0500 From: Ewestland@aol.com Subject: Epoxy and Bondo I read Sid's note today on epoxy reactions with cured lay ups and had a couple of ideas I thought I would throw in. I have not had any trouble with this while using both SPII and 2427. I am using the "Bondo" brand that I purchased at the local auto parts store and possibly there is a difference that could account for a chemical reaction with Sid's work. When I use it, I tend to use too much because I do not want the parts to move. I would rather sand the bondo off for 1/2 hour than have it break loose. However, the temperature that the bondo rises to while curing may be more of a function of the amount of hardener mixed in rather than the amount applied. I know when I mix it I put in just enough hardener to give it color. This gives me about 15 minutes of working time and saves money on the hardener. Of course, I learned this the hard way when I first mixed some several years ago. I put in plenty of hardener and had it cure in a minute or two. When I bondoed (is that a word?) my winglet the other night, I fixed it to the workbench with about a dozen blobs that became half dollar size after being compressed. It took about 1/2 hour to set up, but it cured fine without effecting the glass (2427). Anyways, thanks to Sid for the warning, I know I will keep an eye on this as using this stuff is handy. On a side note, I love the 2427. Good pot life, doesn't smell like the SPII and best of all, it's the cheapest of all the choices. My one complaint is that the hardener is almost clear which makes it harder to spot dry areas in the layups. Does anyone know what Hexcel puts in the stuff to give it color? I'm thinking it would be nice to be able to add some. My project looks like a quilt anyways with all the different hardener colors they have put out over the last 3 years. Is Hexcel on the Internet? I know I have tried to call them before and getting through their voice mail is not easy. Eric (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA05348; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:24:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:24:33 -0500 From: SidLloyd@aol.com Subject: Re: Mailing List Members/pers... > I >still get the "white spots" appearing occasionally after I go to bed! Sounds like a skin reaction- :) Seriously, be careful with dry micro. It is best to make sure it is partially cured before doing a layup over it. I took apart one of my many "mistakes" and was surprised to find the glass fibers dry adjacent to the dry micro. The layup looked fine from the exterior. The uncured dry micro had wicked the epoxy out of the glass fibers! Sid Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 00:17:28 -0500 From: Ewestland@aol.com cros-cp@fanella.ee.up.ac.za Subject: Hello Gordon writes: Hi, Doing a forum at Oshkosh this year on composite materials, especially epoxy resins. The subject is generally, "Epoxy laminates", every thing you've wanted to know but didn't know where to ask. I'm trying to put together a list of common questions that would be expected at the forum tent. If you have questions, could you please send them to my mail box or respond via the usenet. If you'd like a response on-line let me know. Also finishing a Cozy IV would like to hear from fellow canard fans. FYI-earn my living by product management for epoxy resins, brand names and manufacturer plugs will not come up, just the facts. Thanks-Gordon Gordon, I saw you posting and I may have met you at OSH 2 years ago if you are the fellow that works for Hexcel and spoke informally at Nat's forum. Even if you are not the same guy, I have a question and the address so you can join our Cozy builders list on "the net". I am just finishing up my 3rd year on my Mark IV and am on the winglet chapter. So far, so good. I am using the 2427 resin now and would like to know what could be added to it to give it more color. It's present clear color makes it hard to see if the glass is completely wet out. If you would like to join our Cozy builders mail list, Marc Zeitlin has set it up and can be contacted at : marcz@hpwarhw.an.hp.com. I am sending a copy of this to the list as well in case others have questions as well. Thanks, Eric Westland Mukilteo, WA Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 00:11:25 -0500 From: Ewestland@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Cozy IV builder --------------------- Forwarded message: From: gbowen@ix.netcom.com (Gordon Bowen) Date: 95-02-23 10:29:24 EST Hello Eric, Yes, I'm the same guy that spoke at Nat's forum on safety from Hexcel. I'm doing a materials forum this year and was asking for help on the net for the most asked questions on epoxy materials, any help you can solicit would be nice. I'd like to have a list of 50 or so most asked questions, to do a handout at Oshkosh. Re: colorant. Any good epoxy paint concentrate will give you color. Most concentrates are available from paint stores that are for professional painters, ie. cars. There are some colors that will catalyze the reaction, therefore faster gel times, but not much. You'd add very very little concentrate, ie. 0.01%, a drop in a quart. Make sure it is not a powder concentrate, unless you have a high shear mixer that you can make a paste before adding a drop to you mix. Generally concentrates are available in pastes. Thanks for the tip on Marc Z, I'll contact. Stay in contact. Best regards- Gordon Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 00:11:28 -0500 From: Ewestland@aol.com Subject: Re: Cozy IV builder Gordon, Thanks for the epoxy coloring answer. It's great to have you as a resource. I forwarded your answer to the Cozy builders group for the others. One more question about this. Would it be ok to add the colorant to the hardener in my pump so every batch is colored? Any effect on strength? Same amount? Two more questions : 1) I am using 2427 now and the other day, I checked the my epoxy pump by weighing the output on a triple beam balance and doing the math to see if it was putting out a 44:100 ratio by weight. It turned out that it is 41.5 to 100. Is this within the allowable tolerances? Once it cures, it scratches white, but thought I would ask. 2) Another local builder just called me about his fuselage sides which are still a "little slimy". He gets a white scratch, but there is a residue left behind that he has not experienced with other layups. Since it is a large layup, it seemed unlikely all of the batches could have been undermixed, but I suppose it could be part of it. Any ideas how it happened and how it can be repaired, if need be? 3) When I did the pump test the other night, I left the individual cups out in the open over night. I found a thin residue the next day on the cup of hardener, sort of like wax. It did not dissolve when I stirred it, even when heated. Can you explain and is this a sign of something I should be avoiding. 4) I can understand sanding glass surfaces dull if you are going to do a glass lay up over it, but is the same amount of sanding needed if you are just going to spread micro on it? (Just hoping to avoid some sanding :-)). Thanks, Eric Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 14:57:56 -0500 From: Ewestland@aol.com Subject: For your info Subj: Re: Cozy IV builder Date: Sat, Feb 25, 1995 2:33 PM EDT From: gbowen@ix.netcom.com X-From: gbowen@ix.netcom.com (Gordon Bowen) Eric, I'll try to answer each below, I've saved for future use at forum in Oshkosh. >Thanks for the epoxy coloring answer. It's great to have you as a resource. > I forwarded your answer to the Cozy builders group for the others. One more >question about this. Would it be ok to add the colorant to the hardener in >my pump so every batch is colored? Any effect on strength? Same amount? Most epoxy colorants are dyes or pigments. The pigments probably would have some minor effect on tensile, etc. But in general, the properties of the laminate are so overwhelmed by the props of the fabric, the resin as long as it has good wetting and cohesion, could be superglue. I would not recommend a colorant in excess of 0.01%. As indicated the some dyes could have an affect on cure rate, they tend to be metals that catalyze the reaction. You'd have to check. You could add the colorant to either A or B part, if the colorant is a catalyst, it could autocalyze the resin to a cured state even without part B. For example BF3 is a metal that auto-reacts epoxide bonds to a finished resin even without amine curatives. >Two more questions : > >1) I am using 2427 now and the other day, I checked the my epoxy pump by >weighing the output on a triple beam balance and doing the math to see if it >was putting out a 44:100 ratio by weight. It turned out that it is 41.5 to >100. Is this within the allowable tolerances? Once it cures, it scratches >white, but thought I would ask. This range is probably ok, most people use the crude beam wt/moment balance that is decribed in Rutan's and Nat's documents. It cannot be that good. When 2427 was developed we had to use another type of amine curative. It had two problems over good old RAE or Saftepoxy. (1) It is CO2 sensitive, it will react to form that waxy scum you see on the surface, you must keep 2427 in a more tightly closed container than you had to with prior resins, (2) Second problem it will not give as good a room temperature cure within the same time period as prior resins. Means you have to wait longer until you scratch. Within a few weeks both 2427 and 2410/2183 or RAE all come to the same state of cure at room temp. If you use a heat gun, blanket or homebuilt oven, all things come to equal within 12 hrs at 120F. >2) Another local builder just called me about his fuselage sides which are >still a "little slimy". He gets a white scratch, but there is a residue left >behind that he has not experienced with other layups. Since it is a large >layup, it seemed unlikely all of the batches could have been undermixed, but >I suppose it could be part of it. Any ideas how it happened and how it can >be repaired, if need be? Check answer above. If doesn't come to good hardness within 2 weeks, have the guy call me at 510-256-7385 pvt. >3) When I did the pump test the other night, I left the individual cups out >in the open over night. I found a thin residue the next day on the cup of >hardener, sort of like wax. It did not dissolve when I stirred it, even when >heated. Can you explain and is this a sign of something I should be >avoiding. Check answer above. If you see this in a freshly opened can call me. >4) I can understand sanding glass surfaces dull if you are going to do a >glass lay up over it, but is the same amount of sanding needed if you are >just going to spread micro on it? (Just hoping to avoid some sanding Me too, God but do I hate sanding. You have a mechanical bond and a possible chemical bond with epoxies. I the laminate you're trying to stick to is less than 48 hrs hold, you could bond without sanding but should sand anyway. If it over 48 hrs, you really need to sand even if it's micro. :-)). > Good Luck- Gordon Bowen ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From gbowen@ix.netcom.com Sat Feb 25 13:32:05 1995 (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA045947125; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 13:32:05 -0500 id KAA21677; Sat, 25 Feb 1995 10:31:43 -0800 Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 10:31:43 -0800 From: gbowen@ix.netcom.com (Gordon Bowen) Subject: Re: Cozy IV builder Date: Fri, 10 Mar 95 08:31:57 PST From: "Michael Antares" Subject: epoxy oven If anyone is interested, I have just finished building a poor man's epoxy warming oven for a total cost of under $40. I am using the epoxy pump (and I can't imagine being without it) and the pump is stored in the oven and maintained at 85 degrees. Here, in sunny California (!), the temperature this year so far has hardly ever gotten over 60 degrees so I had to do something about keeping the epoxy warm. I constructed the oven out of a K-Mart plastic storage bin (less than $9). It is thermostatically controlled with air circulated by a small muffin fan. I would be happy to supply details. Michael Antares Software/Hardware Systems Engineering mantares@crl.com Santa Rosa, California From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Epoxy (fwd) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 95 13:23:35 EDT Phillip J. writes: > I am just reaching the end of my supply of Safe-T-Poxy II and as a > result I have to place an order for some more. I remember there was a > concern last year about the material being carcinogenic and as a > result new materials were offered. I never did see the conclusion. > What is the currently recommended material? My building conditions > tend to be on the cool side (Canada) rather that the hot side so > viscosity is important. What are the pros and cons for the various > options? I'm using the Hexcel 2427 stuff. It's lower viscosity, and seems to work reasonably well in my basement down to about 70 deg. F. It's got no MDA and is a LOT less volatile than the Safe-T-Poxy I, anyway (I've never used II). The drawback is that it's a very light color, which makes it difficult to find air bubbles or dry areas of the layup. I've had to be VERY careful at low temps to use a hair dryer to help wet out the layups. What say you, Gordon? -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Tue, 11 Apr 95 12:50:05 est From: "Phillip Johnson" Subject: Epoxy Dear All I am just reaching the end of my supply of Safe-T-Poxy II and as a result I have to place an order for some more. I remember there was a concern last year about the material being carcinogenic and as a result new materials were offered. I never did see the conclusion. What is the currently recommended material? My building conditions tend to be on the cool side (Canada) rather that the hot side so viscosity is important. What are the pros and cons for the various options? Thanks in advance. Phillip Johnson Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 18:01:31 -0400 From: SidLloyd@aol.com Subject: Hexcel 2427 At Sun-N-Fun, Jeff Russell mentioned that they have had problems getting 2427 to bond well to cured epoxy. High humidity seems to be the culprit. Anyone else having this problem? Has anyone tested it? They have gone back to Saf-t-Poxy II. Sid From: markt@inetnebr.com (Mark J Turner) Subject: Best Epoxy System Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 19:49:04 -0500 (CDT) Hi All: What are everyones opinions as to the best epoxy system to use... I do not have my plans yet so I am only assuming that the recommended system is the Saf-T-Poxy... What are your opinions of the MDA content? How about the 2427 system, I saw something about moisture being a problem... I am in Lincoln, NE and we have humidity around 80-99% all summer... I might be getting ahead of myself here, but am trying to do all the planning that I can ahead of time... Mark... Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 22:34:53 -0400 (EDT) From: pathways Subject: Re: Best Epoxy System Mark, I have used Epolite 2427 from the start and have had no problems to date. I live in Knoxville TN where the humidity is real high. I keep my pump in a wooden box with a door that swings down. Inside the box is a 60 WATT light bulb to keep things warm. Also, I peel-ply everything. ..Marty Kansky Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 19:23:26 -0400 From: CozyBldr@aol.com Subject: AS & Rutan Epoxy I don't know how many people this might affect but I just learned this weekend that Aircraft Spruce will no longer carry the Rutan (RAE) epoxy & hardeners. I checked with Hexcel to see if it was discontinued but they said no. Apparently there is a minimum order for the hardeners and AS must not get enough orders for it. Alexander still carries it but their price went up recently. Paul Stowitts Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 16:36:53 -0700 From: tims@enet.net (Tim Sullivan) Subject: Help with Epoxy systems Epoxys: In my efforts to prepare the garage for building I need some advise on epoxy systems. If I remember correctly the Cozy plans stick with the RAE system. Then there is safe-t-poxy. Is there an inherent problem with the latter? My mother is allergic to nearly all strong chemicals. Figuring that I have picked up some of this sensitivity the safe-t-poxy sounds appealing. What are my options? Pumps: Looking at Alexander and Spruce catalogs it appears that you can either buy 100:45 fixed or an adjustable pump $200/$300 respectivly. Since the RAE is 100:21 it seems that my choice would be obvious (sticking with RAE no pun intended). Would I have any luck in the rec.aviation.homebuilt group to pick up a used one? Vacuum Bagging: Is anyone in the group using this technique. Sounds pretty simple. Keeping this bird down to 1050 lbs. would probably be easier with VB but time is also a factor. Any input would be helpful. Cores: I was told by a Cozy 3 pilot (he finished last year) that if he had to do it all over again he would have bought the core already cut. Who does this and what is the cost for the complete set? At least now I'm in the batter's box for building... the wife is still asking about build time and four place kits. I reply "there's always that Lancair IV for a mere 100k". Works everytime ;) Besides as mention in this group with $$$ you can always buy the tougher parts prefab. Thanks Tim Sullivan (tims@libre.com) O -----(/)----- Future Cozy Builder / \ O O Favorite Quote: Women are like tea. You never know how strong the are until you are in hot water. Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 17:16:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: Help with Epoxy systems On Tue, 4 Jul 1995, Tim Sullivan wrote: > Epoxys: > > In my efforts to prepare the garage for building I need some advise on epoxy > systems. If I remember correctly the Cozy plans stick with the RAE system. > Then there is safe-t-poxy. Is there an inherent problem with the latter? My > mother is allergic to nearly all strong chemicals. Figuring that I have > picked up some of this sensitivity the safe-t-poxy sounds appealing. What > are my options? I have not tried SP, but SPII hardener really has a strong smell - penetrated every room of our three floor, 3300 sq. ft. home. I had to ventilate with a fan. I heard RAE slow hardener is not being made anymore or carried by some suppliers, but I did like using it. I have settled on the 2427 - it cures a little slow, but it is the least expensive and has worked great for me. > Pumps: > > Looking at Alexander and Spruce catalogs it appears that you can either buy > 100:45 fixed or an adjustable pump $200/$300 respectivly. Since the RAE is > 100:21 it seems that my choice would be obvious (sticking with RAE no pun > intended). Would I have any luck in the rec.aviation.homebuilt group to > pick up a used one? Go with the fixed pump. You can drill a hole in the handle to convert back and forth. The details may be in an old newsletter, I can't remember the second hole measurement, but I can look it up when you need to convert. Doing this has worked very well for me and is very accurate. A second option may be an accurate scale, but the pumps are great. > Cores: > > I was told by a Cozy 3 pilot (he finished last year) that if he had to do it > all over again he would have bought the core already cut. Who does this and > what is the cost for the complete set? FeatherLite supplies them as does Aerocad. Eric Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 10:06:19 -0400 From: SidLloyd@aol.com Subject: Re: Help with Epoxy systems In a message dated 95-07-04 19:41:31 EDT, tims@enet.net (Tim Sullivan) writes: > If I remember correctly the Cozy plans stick with the RAE system. >Then there is safe-t-poxy. Is there an inherent problem with the latter? My >mother is allergic to nearly all strong chemicals. Figuring that I have >picked up some of this sensitivity the safe-t-poxy sounds appealing. What >are my options? The CozyIV plans calls out Safe-t-poxy. This has been superceded by Hexcel 2427 which works great, smells less, and uses the same ratio pump as safe-t-poxy. I used Alexander Aeroplane's new epoxy for a bit, but went back to 2427 because I wasn't convinced that Alexander's had good enough mechanical properties. > >Vacuum Bagging: > >Is anyone in the group using this technique. Sounds pretty simple. Keeping >this bird down to 1050 lbs. would probably be easier with VB but time is >also a factor. Any input would be helpful. > It saves some weight, but is a LOT more work. Go to Alexander Aeroplane's composite workshop and learn how to do light layups without vacuum bagging. It is well worth the time and money even if you have to fly to Georgia for a weekend to do it if there isn't one coming to your area soon. >Cores: > >I was told by a Cozy 3 pilot (he finished last year) that if he had to do it >all over again he would have bought the core already cut. Who does this and >what is the cost for the complete set? Two choices- Featherlight makes per-plans cores. AeroCad makes quick build wing and canard kits which have molded spars and build very fast. Of course, they cost more! I think the AeroCad stuff is $650 for the canard kit and $1800 for the wing kits. Featherlight is $180 for the canard cores and $1245 for the wing cores. BTW- I wasn't impressed with the Featherlight engine cowl set I saw. It didn't seem that strong. And I haven't been that impressed with the Featherlight parts I have purchased. I sent back the keel section as people will stand on it in the plane and it was just two layers of BID with no foam core! Sid From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: Help with Epoxy systems + cores Date: Wed, 5 Jul 95 10:11:07 EDT Eric W. replied to Tim S.'s questions: >I have not tried SP, but SPII hardener really has a strong smell - >penetrated every room of our three floor, 3300 sq. ft. home. I had to >ventilate with a fan. I heard RAE slow hardener is not being made >anymore or carried by some suppliers, but I did like using it. I have >settled on the 2427 - it cures a little slow, but it is the least >expensive and has worked great for me. I used SP on the Q2. It smelled something awful, AND I became allergic to it. I use 2427 now. It smells much less, but I still wear a mask and butyl gloves, and try to ventilate the basement with a fan during long layups. >> Cores: >> I was told by a Cozy 3 pilot (he finished last year) that if he had to do it >> all over again he would have bought the core already cut. Who does this and >> what is the cost for the complete set? > >FeatherLite supplies them as does Aerocad. The FeatherLite wing cores are about $1300, and the canard cores are $190. I disagree with the premise, though - I think by taking good care, you can save a LOT of money and get perfectly good cores yourself (with a helper). Hot wiring the canard only took us about 4 hours total, and used maybe $20 worth of foam. I'd guess the wings and winglets will take 6 -8 hours, and we'll save over $1000. Worth it to me, but again, you need to be VERY careful and do some test cuts (the straight ones) first to calibrate yourselves. -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 18:50:27 -0400 From: CozyBldr@aol.com Subject: Re: Help with Epoxy systems Tim Sullivan writes: >Epoxys: > >In my efforts to prepare the garage for building I need some advise on epoxy >systems. If I remember correctly the Cozy plans stick with the RAE system. >Then there is safe-t-poxy. Is there an inherent problem with the latter? My >mother is allergic to nearly all strong chemicals. Figuring that I have >picked up some of this sensitivity the safe-t-poxy sounds appealing. What >are my options? I use the RAE with the slow cure hardener. I like working with it but Aircraft Spruce is no longer carrying it. Nat now recommends the 2427 as a superior epoxy and that is what I would choose now. Paul Stowitts Thu, 6 Jul 95 11:20:00 W. Europe Daylight Time--100 From: "Niels Oestergaard Kjaer" Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:18:16 +0100 Subject: Epoxy welfare Suggestions for basic epoxy and workmanship : 1. Always use a fan in the workingarea, which is kept running while working with epoxy. 2. Use a mask with a appropiate filter 3. Always use gloves. Using skin-barrier cream is not 100% safe because small amount of epoxy will pass into the skin. 4. When the air feels heavy using the mask, open the door until the breathing is easy and normal again. Being slubby with epoxy can cause an primary or secondary allergy, but still it is possible to get rid of an allergy, only depends on the individual hasn t been too busy collecting too many body disorders. In the plans it is mentioned that one can judge the quality of the workmanship on how clean his workshop is, I would like to add what is written in 1. to 4. BR Niels Fri, 7 Jul 95 12:43:31 W. Europe Daylight Time--100 From: "Niels Oestergaard Kjaer" Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:40:32 +0100 Subject: Epoxy welfare Date sent: 06 Jul 95 13:10:46 EDT From: Electronic Postmaster Subject: Undeliverable message Your message could not be delivered for the following reason: Mailbox 73311.1511 is currently full. Please resend your message at a later time. ....... Suggestions for basic epoxy and workmanship : 1. Always use a fan in the workingarea, which is kept running while working with epoxy. 2. Use a mask with a appropiate filter 3. Always use gloves. Using skin-barrier cream is not 100% safe because small amount of epoxy will pass into the skin. 4. When the air feels heavy using the mask, open the door until the breathing is easy and normal again. Being slubby with epoxy can cause an primary or secondary allergy, but still it is possible to get rid of an allergy, only depends on the individual hasn t been too busy collecting too many body disorders. In the plans it is mentioned that one can judge the quality of the workmanship on how clean his workshop is, I would like to add what is written in 1. to 4. The small allergy signals to look for is dizziness, dull feeling inside ones head, lack of concentration, beginning loss of appetite, the breathing becomes somewhat restricted, diffuculties to put one self together at the daily work etc. If any of these signals shows up it is best to stay away from epoxy until the symptoms have gone away,- could be some days maybe some weeks. Then back to building and a better ventilation standard. Too many builders didn t pay enough attention resulting in selling their materials with loss of time and money and a beautiful dream. Finally even gloves aren't perfect, so after removal one should use hand cleanser products like Swarfega which removes resin from the skin and finally soap. Maybe a procedure that is restrictive, time consuming and irritating, but effective,- which Cozy MKIV aeroplane have asked for an epoxy addicted pilot ? BR Niels Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 09:27:29 -0400 From: SidLloyd@aol.com Subject: Re: Epoxy welfare In a message dated 95-07-06 12:54:32 EDT, wow@cybernet.dk (Niels Oestergaard Kjaer) writes: >Suggestions for basic epoxy and workmanship : > >1. Always use a fan in the workingarea, which is kept running while >working with epoxy. >2. Use a mask with a appropiate filter In the current CSA newsletter, a guy has rigged up a fresh air supply using a shop-vac! I saw tiny shop-vac at Home Depot that would work great. >3. Always use gloves. Using skin-barrier cream is not 100% safe >because small amount of epoxy will pass into the skin. I would add- use vinyl, not latex. You can get disposable vinyl gloves from Direct Safety, 1-800-528-7405. Sid Sun, 9 Jul 95 01:25:07 W. Europe Daylight Time--100 From: "Niels Oestergaard Kjaer" Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 01:20:45 +0100 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Epoxy welfare final ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 23:36:57 -0400 >From: NBalog@aol.com >To: wow@cybernet.dk >Subject: Re: Epoxy welfare >I beg to differ on your "allergy symptoms;" what ..... Quite right Norm, should have been "vapour symptoms,..........." > and consider a ventilator/filter, >fresh air system, and/or cross-flow ventilation in the room. and maybe consider ventilation from the beginning. Niels K Date: 13 Jul 1995 09:17:18 U From: "Judd Stewart" Subject: Hexcel Epoxy (Buy direct) People, HEXCEL will sells direct by the case or 5/2.5 gal pails. Prices are effective July 12,1995 Minimum order $500 plus shipping. Depending on the size of the order they will ship via UPS. qty 4 - 1gal cont. of 2410 = $170.06 qty 4 - 1/2 gal cont.s of 2183 = $75.82 qty 4 - 1/2 gal cont. of 2184 = $75.68 qty 1 - 5 gal pail of 2410 = $190.66 qty 1 - 2.5 gal pail of 2183 = $98.45 qty 1 - 2.5 gal pail of 2184 = $89.16 qty 4 - 1gal cont. of Part A 2427 = $170.06 qty 4 - 1/2 gal cont. of Part B 2427 = $86.22 qty 1 - 5 gal pail of Part A 2427 = $122.09 qty 1 - 2.5 gal pail of Part B 2427 = $104.46 Judd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 10:31:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Tech Support - Rick Subject: Re: Epoxy Fuel Compatibility > > 1) Is STP Safety-poxy? Yep. > > Piper, Mooney, Long-Ez types are flying something other than Hexcel 2427! > Safety-poxy "HAS" the history of compatibility, I remember when Burt > recommended it. I also remember people sloshing there tanks with some sort of > compound. Safety-poxy works! 2427 is "NOT" Safety-poxy! If you were to read the CP's , STP 1 and 2 were both recommended at the time for this reason. 2427 is not referred to as STP because of the lack of MDA(hexcel). However , it was formulated to be a non-toxic, non-carcinogen, replacement to STP 1&2. it was made for hand layups of E,S-glass, Kevlar,and carbon fiber. > > 2)BTW- Has anybody got any idea's on how one would slosh the tanks of a > completed Cozy. This thing is huge and to get full coverage one would have to > a) fill the tank to the brim (expensive) or b) put in a couple of gallons and > rotate the plane through all axis's. put 5 gallons in each tank, raise and lower the nose 5 or six times, move nose left and right in the process by about 1 foot either way. Drain. This assumes wings are on it. If wings are not attached, much easier. Rick Mon, 17 Jul 1995 09:37:49 +1000 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 09:31:07 +0200 From: parkyn@citr.uq.oz.au (Nick Parkyn) Subject: Fuel & Epoxy The old Safety-poxy is fuel resistant and at that time was one of the few that was. Many composite fuel tanks are made using vinylester resin, but we can't use it - it is extremely fuel resistant to most fuels. What about Aeropoxy - I thought Rutan Aircraft Factory RAF tested and approved it? There are other room temperature epoxies that are also used by RAF which might be used just to coat the tanks. The person who would know is Mike Melville at RAF. Maybe one of you in the U.S. could contact him - preferrably a legal eze builder! Testing is not so easy! Tony Bingelis wrote about it in one of his articles, samples must be submersed in fuel (must be AVGAS) for 3 months or more and all edges of laminate must be sealed with resin (no exposed fibres). Similar sample must be "structurally" tested in a composite test machine - one which was submersed and one which was not. Delaminating is the extreme case, but absorption may reduce laminate properties! There is a compound (not epoxy) to paint the inner surface of the (epoxy based laminate) tanks with (used of Lancair and Stallion), but it is very expensive - sufficient to coat Stallion tanks costs $400 - $500 (I think). The tanks are painted before close out. Nick Parkyn. Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:49:41 -0400 From: NBalog@aol.com Subject: thanks and talc allergies Gotta say my attempt at doing this seatbelt layup was disheartening at best; I knew I'd get the feedback/support I needed from the group... now all I need is another cup of coffee and some powder milk biscuits and I can get the job done. By the way... I wanted to ask if anyone has been having problems wearing gloves for extended periods of time. Like redness, itching, swelling, or blisters? After doing the fuselage bottom layup three weeks ago I spent two miserable days wringing my hands because they itched so badly (I used a lot of a steroid cream called triamcinolone), and I watched a small crop of 1 to 2 mm maculopapular (flat to bumpy) vesicles (fluid-filled blisters) spring up and go away, especially around my fingernails. So two weeks later I get time to do the layup on one side and the same thing happened, but it wasn't as bad and didn't last as long. Now the first thing that comes to mind is, "I can always go to the safety poxy," but as I think about this, and review what I know (and can look up on) contact dermatitis, I'm feeling better about the RAE. I had been using a synthetic non-latex glove called "Sensicare" made by the Becton Dickinson company (touted as hypoallergenic), which comes coated on the inside with a "100% absorbable dusting powder, U.S.P." I'll translate: this is a plastic glove that's supposed to cause fewer allergic reactions than latex. It's coated with godknowswhat but it's absorbable. While my hands are healing (there's still some mild cracking and peeling of the fingertips), I've been wearing latex gloves again, and the rash hasn't gotten worse. I slather on a good layer of regular hand lotion, air dry, put on gloves, and go to work. Some thoughts on the subject: First: I hate to be my own doctor, but what the heck, it saves time and if it gets worse I'll give one of my friends in dermatology a call. Second: the rash is limited to the inside of the gloves, nowhere on my arms or legs where I frequently get spattered or smeared with epoxy during a long layup. No eye, nose, or facial irritation either. This could be attributed to prolonged sweating inside the gloves (like trenchfoot, ada "immersion foot"), or the fact that on both occasions I also applied ply-nine gel to my arms to protect what the gloves didn't cover and the preservative in ply-9, methyl paraben, is a known sensitizing agent (allergen), especially so if kept in contact with warm, moist, skin, like inside a glove. Talc and other "dusting powders," cause inflammatory reactions similar to what I developed too. Third: I'm going to do some "patch testing" on my arm or hand with pieces of the two glove materials with and without ply-nine and with and without epoxy (as a last resort), plus ply-nine alone; I'm also going to look at some coin/stamp or hobby shops for cheap throw-away cotton liners I can wear under the gloves. I'll post something at a future date; meanwhile, anyone else have a similar problem, and how did you handle it? -Norm From: Marc Zeitlin Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 18:35:40 EDT Subject: thanks and talc allergies (fwd) Norm B. writes: Here's what I've posted before (and is in the archives under barrier cream): Here's my take on this, after getting a local allergic reaction to the Safety Poxy I used for the Q2. 1) Use barrier cream (not critical, but can't hurt). 2) Put on cotton glove liners (available from Wicks, etc.) These will keep your hands relatively dry. 3) Put on Butyl Rubber Gloves (available in sizes 7, 8, 9 from Alexanders) According to friends in the plastics industry, these are the ONLY material which is completely impermeable to the volatiles in the epoxies. Latex does NOT protect you from the nasty stuff. 4) Put on VINYL gloves over the butyl (the butyl are expensive [~$13] and the VINYL are cheap - throw away after each layup). (this is a correction from before - I had previously INCORRECTLY stated I was using Latex gloves, and I'm NOT). 5) Wear a carbon filter respirator for EVERY layup. Breathing epoxy vapors can cause a systemic allergic reaction. Please, don't take any chances - even a local allergic reaction is no fun (my fingers would swell up to twice their normal size and itch like mad for 2-3 days) - I don't even want to think about what a systemic reaction might be. I know that Norm wrote that he didn't think it was an epoxy allergy, and it might not be (yet), but LATEX and vinyl gloves do NOT protect you from the nasty stuff. The volatiles in the epoxy can go right through the latex or Vinyl. Please use Butyl gloves! Next, as far as talc reactions - I got a couple of bags of cotton liners from wicks or alexanders or spruce (don't remember which). The Butyl gloves have no talc, but I put baby powder in them on occasion if they've gotten sweaty, and I wash them out every couple of layups, as well. I wash my hands IMMEDIATELY after each and every time I remove the gloves. I wear a long sleeve shirt so that epoxy NEVER touches my skin. Good luck - protect yourself please, and get a few pair of BUTYL gloves. -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com From: Lee Devlin Subject: Allergies Date: Mon, 31 Jul 95 23:55:17 MDT Norm wrote: > By the way... I wanted to ask if anyone has been having problems wearing > gloves for extended periods of time. Like redness, itching, swelling, or > blisters? After doing the fuselage bottom layup three weeks ago I spent two > miserable days wringing my hands because they itched so badly (I used a lot > of a steroid cream called triamcinolone), and I watched a small crop of 1 to > 2 mm maculopapular (flat to bumpy) vesicles (fluid-filled blisters) spring up > and go away, especially around my fingernails. So two weeks later I get time > to do the layup on one side and the same thing happened, but it wasn't as bad > and didn't last as long. > > Now the first thing that comes to mind is, "I can always go to the safety > poxy," but as I think about this, and review what I know (and can look up on) > contact dermatitis, I'm feeling better about the RAE. I had been using a > synthetic non-latex glove called "Sensicare" made by the Becton Dickinson > company (touted as hypoallergenic), which comes coated on the inside with a > "100% absorbable dusting powder, U.S.P." > > I'll post something at a future date; meanwhile, anyone else have a similar > problem, and how did you handle it? I had a problem that was very similar to yours about 6 weeks ago. I rationalized at first that it was a 'fiberglass reaction' since I had been sanding fiberglass before putting on the gloves to do a layup. I went on vacation and suffered from a sort of numbness/itchy/redness ordeal that went away in a few days and then the skin began to peel off of my fingers. I am using the new Hexcel 2427. I don't know if it's more similar to 2426 (RAE) or 2410 (Safety Poxy II). After two weeks, with my fingers nearly healed, I did a layup but this time, I used cotton liners. I thought that the sweating of my hands caused the ply 9 to disolve inside the latex gloves and, as we've already discussed here, the latex offers no protection from the volatiles. So, I used ply 9, cotten liners, and the latex and that night got a reaction that was much worse than the previous one. It lasted for three days and my skin took 4 weeks to recover from it. The odd thing is that it was such a small layup (~2 hours). I had been doing layups for months using this same approach with absolutely no problems. I ordered the butyl gloves from Alexanders as well as the barrier cream 'Invisible Gloves' that they sell which I like better than Ply 9 or Series 8. In the mean time, I used a pair of chemically resistant gloves from the hardware store that are intended for stripping paint. They look and feel very much like dishwashing gloves. I used latex gloves over them. This worked with absolutely no reaction. Latex gloves are thin and are susceptible to micro punctures (from cured epoxy/fiberglass needles) that render them useless. I have noticed that on several occasions, the epoxy gets through these holes and leaves small visible wet spots on my black butyl gloves. These wet spots are not visible unless you have something like black gloves on under the latex which gives them a high contrast. You can get the stripping gloves at WalMart for about $3. They are not as nice as the butyl gloves in that they reduce your dexterity but you might want to give them a try to find your size and then order the butyl gloves from Alexander. You will need to wear vinyl or latex disposable gloves over the butyl gloves to make them last longer, i.e., more than one layup. I spent 9 hours in the Colt today flying through rain showers across MN, SD, and NE returning from OSH and enjoying every minute of it, partly because it was 35F cooler than Sunday at Oshkosh. We all got a bit of an education listening to Nat's words of wisdom at our little Internet gathering near his Cozy. He's really got a unique style which I had failed to fully appreciate during my previous conversations with him. Hope to see you all there again next year. Lee D. Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:44:45 -0400 From: NBalog@aol.com Subject: Re: Allergies Thanks for the feedback, lee. I dug out a pair of HEAVY neoprene/latex gloves from under a sink somewhere (legacy of my undergraduate organic chem. lab job) and after applying a THICK coating of ply nine, donning latex gloves, and then putting these things on over all that, proceeded to finish the fuselage tub last night (another six hour marathon... haven't watched the sun rise in years). Today, no reaction. My skin is intact, no itching, etc... I'm also using 2427; I'm certain that there are volatiles which DO permeate the latex (or thin synthetic) gloves I was also using, and the redness/itching/pain and peeling I had (and which you so well described) was related to these, not the gloves, powder, etc. Am setting up an order for Wicks today for a 7.5 gal epoxy "kit" butyl gloves, liners, and the "other" barrier cream. I gotta get on with this project. -Norm Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:41:26 -0400 From: SidLloyd@aol.com Subject: Re: Allergies In a message dated 95-08-02 17:37:53 EDT, NBalog@aol.com writes: > dug out a pair of HEAVY neoprene/latex gloves from under a sink somewhere >(legacy of my undergraduate organic chem. lab job) and after applying a >THICK coating of ply nine, donning latex gloves, and then putting these >things on over all that, Actually, put the latex disposable gloves on over the butyl gloves. This will save you from having to buy multiple expensive butyl gloves as they get gooped up with epoxy. Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 23:43:34 -0400 From: JIMWHI@aol.com Subject: Re: Compression strengths In a message dated 95-09-28 17:11:39 EDT, you write: Nick Ugolini had some great information on vacuum bagging and I plan to keep it around for future reference, but I disagree with one of his statements: >Resin also provides the majority >of COMPRESSION and IMPACT strength in a layup, BUT very little tensile >strength. Tensile strength is critical, and is mainly what you are after with > >the layups. Compression and impact strength is not as critical. Our plane is > >mainly designed for tension loading. Our plane is not designed mainly for tension. I would be careful vacuum bagging certain surfaces (such as the upper surface of the main wing) for fear of reducing its compressive strength. Thinner material buckles easier than thicker material. While the glass fibers of our airplane may have a tensile strength of umpteen thousand pounds per square inch, without resin, its compressive strenghth is zero. The compressive strength of the composite of the resin and the fibers will vary depending on the orientaion of the fibers. (Gordon Bowen, feel free to jump in and help me out if you see any difficencies) Our resins by them selves have the following compressive strengths: RAE (Slow or Fast) 12,500 psi Safety Epoxy (Original) 16,000 psi 2427 Epoxy 15,700 psi (I don't know about the PTMW specs.) Tensile strengths for the resin by itself are: RAE (Slow or Fast) 7,800 psi Safety Epoxy (Original) 8,200 psi 2427 Epoxy 11,000 psi In addition they have the following impact notch toughness: RAE (Slow or Fast) 0.9 Safety Epoxy (Original) 2.3 2427 Epoxy 3.1 That's my 2 cents worth. Jim White Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 20:38:49 -0500 From: RonKidd@aol.com Subject: No skin rash I read with amusement the fact that Mr. Rosen had no adverse reaction to epoxy with his car repair. I work daily wirth a multitude of resins (owning an orthopedic manufacturing company) which includes methyl methracrylate, acrylics, and polyesters, and laminating epoxies. I have never in 25 yearsmhad an adverse reaction to any of them. I often wash my hands in acetone (I never claimed to be the sharpest crayon in the box). I worked dailyon my airplane using little protection with Saftety-Poxy for three years with no problems. I was careful at first, careless at last. The last year I built, my hands started breaking down, initially at the nail beds, then the DIP, IP and MP creases. My hands looked like they had been burned! The bled from flexing as they tried to heal. I would often go to bed with vinyl gloves taped to my wrists to keep hydra cortisone creame on the wounds. They did not completely heal until I got out of the glass work. I still get the beginnings of irritation with any contact (after 5 years of "abstenance") from the epoxy. I could never build another one! Don't be stupid!! Protect your skin at all times from Epoxy! Never, never wash it off with a thinner (acetone or MEK) as it sends it right into your bloodstream. I was lucky, I got my airplane finished. Had I been a little more sensitive earlier in the project, I might not have been able to finish it! Nuff Said? Ron Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 22:21:58 -0500 From: COZYMK4@aol.com Subject: Re: No Epoxy Reaction -- Yeah! Jeff I'm a doctor of family practice and I do most of the dermatology for my group. I sent a letter to Nat last year to explain how allergies work and he printed a very abrieviated version in a newsletter. It takes multiple contacts to become allergic and when it starts, it can only get worse with each further contact. What you have learned about avoiding contact is important, especially the part about solvents pulling the chemicals into the skin deeper and increasing the risk of reaction. Once the epoxy is cured, it is too large of a molecule to cause problems for allergies, but the dust, and moreso, the unused (out of the bag) micro-balloons can be irritating to the nose and sinuses. I have a bad tendency to not protect myself from these particles and notice them in my system for 1-2 days after a big layup that I stirred my micro rapidly on, or one in which I did a lot of sanding. This is not an allergy, but may allow sinus infections to occur easier and promote hayfever allergies. I use a simple dust mask, safety glasses and foam ear plugs for about one-third of my hours on the project. Latex gloves are the most common glove used in the medical field since they are cheap and readily available. But, 2-5% of all health care workers develop an allergy to the softeners and conditioners used in latex gloves. Many have to use the more expensive synthetics since they leave good contact sensation, durability and biologic agent resistance. Vinyl is a relatively cheap alternative, but the sensation through one is only fair. Butyl gloves are rarely found, probably because they tear too easily. The newer synthetic ones are used in my clinic, but when I tried some with the newest Safety Poxy (2427), in a matter of minutes, I had holes and small tears. I have non-sterile standard latex exam gloves in a box of a hundred at a time that I prefer to use. My work table is 4X12 and still parts overhang on both sides loke the fuselage sides, spar, and canard. I have done most of the work with the table in the middle of the shop (a one car garage) but also, a lot with it fastened to the wall. Right now, the body is in the 2 car garage while I build the wing in the shop. If I had to compromise, I would go for narrower and leave as much length as possible. I have sat in the proof of plans model in Mesa and find that I am quite comfortable at 6' 0" and 200 pounds. My wife was also comfortable. The shoulder room between longerons is as wide as my Honda CRX which took us to Mesa from Oklahoma. The back seat is narrower and I am counting on doing as much flying as possible before my 2 boys grow too much larger (5 and 8 years old). Best of Flying Kevin Funk M.D. Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 15:10:47 -0800 From: brimmer@ix.netcom.com (Kenneth Brimmer ) Subject: New Safety Pox Despenser After three years of having completed my plane I have finally run out of the old Safety Poxy. I seem to recall that the new Safety Poxy requires a different ratio. Does anyont know about this? Can I get new parts for my pump? Anything else I should know about this new epoxy? Would appreciate hearing anything on this. Thanks <:-). Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 22:44:53 -0500 From: NBalog@aol.com Subject: Re: No Epoxy Reaction -- Yeah, right! In a message dated 95-11-03 20:57:30 EST, jrosson@symetrics wrote: > That Safety-Poxy stuff isn't supposed to smell so much, but maybe it isn't the smell that destroys your lungs, but what you are inhaling and aren't smelling. Exactly. There's "stuff" in that epoxy, any epoxy, which is volatile and, while it may not directly cause eye/nose/throat irritation, your liver won't like it much, that's why the MDA has been taken out of most of the resins on the market. The EPA's rats were having some problems metabolizing it I bought a not-too-cheap 3M respirator at a local hardware superstore (Hechinger's or Home Depot) for about 38 bucks; it takes some getting used to but I find that after a six-hour layup my thinking is clearer despite the haze that fills my basement. Next on my list is an exhaust fan. . . > Additionally, what is wrong with Latex gloves? Does the epoxy or MEK eat them up, >or can they cause skin reactions, too? Actually, both. Look around for a Fisher Scientific catalog (available at most chemical supply houses) and you'll find a chart which shows the relative permeability of glove materials versus solvents, resins, etc. Latex is okay, but those volatile compounds WILL get through the gloves. Latex has micropores (reported to allow even small viruses like HIV through) and, while water- and epoxy-proof, they have limitations. Use barrier cream (ply-9 sucks, try one of the more expensive types). >Doctors use them all day without problems (I think), so is a Latex reaction something >that you either have or don't have? I thought so until I was wearing them daily, multiple pairs, frequent changes, lots of sweating (I was an anesthesia resident for a while) and I started getting some skin breakdown which I wrote about extensively in this forum. I now use "Sensicare" gloves (Becton-Dickinson mfr.) about $20 a box of 100 OVER a pair of butyl rubber gloves (about $12.95) with cotton liners. Thick, clumsy, at first, but I've gotten used to it and I can still build my plane Allergies take time to develop. Patients have been telling me for years (I'm in FP and did Aviation Medicine for a couple of years with the army) "how can I be allergic to this, Doctor, I've been using it for years." Exactly. It just takes time and exposure; it's actually more complicated than this but this isn't the forum for it. Good luck. Think about getting a pair of butyl rubber gloves but use latex or something on the outside; they're cheaper than the butyl ones. -Norm From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: New Safety Pox Despenser (fwd) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 8:50:23 EST Den Brimmer writes: >After three years of having completed my plane I have finally run out >of the old Safety Poxy. I seem to recall that the new Safety Poxy >requires a different ratio. Does anyont know about this? If you're referring to the 2427 epoxy (what I'm using), the ratio is 100:44, which I THINK is the same as the previous two Safety Poxys. >.......... Can I get >new parts for my pump? Geez, I don't have the mfg's name here at work, but the instructions I got with my pump had an address and a parts list, so I'd guess the answer is yes. >....... Anything else I should know about this new >epoxy? Would appreciate hearing anything on this. Thanks <:-). Yeah. It's got almost no color, so it's hard to tell when the layup is wet out. You've got to look very closely. It's got a reasonably low viscosity, so it doesn't need to be very warm to do your layups - 70 deg Farenheit is more than adequate (a hair dryer will help with the squeegeeing). It has very little smell, but WEAR THAT MASK! Be very careful laying up over partially cures layups - I (and others) have had non-adhesion if the underlying layup has gotten tacky. Either layup while the previous layers are still wet, or wait till it's cured and sand it (and/or peel ply). It's good stuff, just takes a little getting used to. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 10:34:00 -0500 From: Dick.Finn@FNB.sprint.com Subject: Re: No Epoxy Reaction -- Yeah, right! Now, at the risk of inviting more razzing, is the respirator really necessary? I don't use a respirator for my work with epoxy. I'm using RAE which has no smell. I guess that doesn't mean that it isn't busily giving of non-smellable carcinegens. I haven't noticed any effects on my lungs after four years of building. Again, that doesn't mean that nothing is happening. The Safety Poxy stinks to the high heaven. I think if I used it in the house my wife would shoot me. A buddy is using it in his garage work shop. In any case, I am real interested in hearing other replies to this question. I do have a Hobbyaire fresh air respirator that I use for sanding. It pumps fresh air from a distant location to a face mask. Works great! On a final issue, my postings seem to generate two seperate messages. Any ideas why? As a professional in the field of PC/Local Area Network design, implementation and management I would say that your PC is probably infested with gremlins. Try an incantation, that sometimes works. Reply-To: Nigel.Field@HQPSB.SSC.ssc-asc.x400.gc.ca Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 16:54:56 GMT From: Nigel.Field@HQPSB.SSC.ssc-asc.x400.gc.ca (Field, Nigel (1416)) Subject: EPOXY PROTECTION Just a personal experience to add to the discussions on gloves. Some years ago I did a big layup using Epolite 2410 and 2184 hardener (Safety Poxy II) that lasted about 6 hours. I was wearing LATEX gloves, the cheap disposable kind. When finished I discarded the gloves and washed my hands, had a shower and went to bed. In bed I could smell the epoxy on my hands quite strongly even though my hands had not come in direct contact with epoxy and I had washed them twice. In the morning my hands were red and swollen. After three days they began to crack and bleed and itched like hell. I got some cream from my MD which helped but it took about 3 weeks before they were back to normal. It appears that the toxic part of the resin had gone right through the gloves and concentrated in my skin. I later read an article in Canard Pusher about a similar experience where it was postulated that the LATEX gloves actually concentrate the toxin and make it worse. I will leave the physics to those better qualified but I certainly support that theory. Since then I have been using NEOPRENE dish gloves from the grocery store without any re-occurrence (thankfully). They are cotton flok lined and fairly comfortable but lack the tactile feel of the thin latex gloves. I found that one quickly gets used to using them. If you clean them up with methyl alcohol and a paper towel you can use them many times. They have a rough surface for gripping which is great for doing spar cap layups (I did one last night) as you can pull the fibres straight with your hand better than a squeegee. I would strongly recommend to everyone DO NOT USE LATEX GLOVES for epoxy, period. Safe building, Nigel Field From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: No Epoxy Reaction -- Yeah, right! (fwd) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 13:21:22 EST Dick Finn wrote: >Jeff Rosson wrote: >> Now, at the risk of inviting more razzing, is the respirator really >>necessary? > >I don't use a respirator for my work with epoxy......... >...... In any case, I am real interested in hearing other replies to >this question. I do have a Hobbyaire fresh air respirator that I use for >sanding. It pumps fresh air from a distant location to a face mask. Works >great! You may be one of the lucky ones who never develops an allergy (either local or systemic) to the epoxy. However, there's no way to tell when (if ever) this will happen. USE A RESPIRATOR or the Hobbyaire while using the epoxy. I get a hay-fever like reaction to the expoxy if I don't wear the respirator, and the last thing I want is to become allergic to my plane. (Not to mention having it kill me before I even fly it!). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 12:39:36 -0600 From: Scott Mandel Subject: Epoxy Reactions X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII >Jeff Rosson wrote: >> Now, at the risk of inviting more razzing, is the respirator really >>necessary? > >I don't use a respirator for my work with epoxy. I'm seconding Marc's response. I did get a systemic reaction to the epoxy. It resulted in a rash over 95% of my body. The reaction caused my blood pressure to rise and I had to be treated with topical steriods. All in All I lost almost two months that I couldn't work on my plane. My doctor assures me that if I'm not more careful in the future the next time it will be worse. I can't image anything worse. I encourage everyone out there to wear masks, butyl gloves if your not doing it now, insure good ventilation, and wear long sleeve shirts and pants to insure there is as little direct contact with the skin as possible. Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 13:40:41 -0500 From: william l kleb Subject: Re: No Epoxy Reaction -- Yeah, right! Dick Finn writes: > > Now, at the risk of inviting more razzing, is the respirator really > necessary? > rebuttal question: why, do you find the respirator uncomfortable or inconvenient? > I don't use a respirator for my work with epoxy. again: why not? (you invited the razzing ;) one thing that bothers me is that the eaa tech who gave the painting lecture at an oshkosh forum this year claimed that the active portion of the carbon filter is not effective after about 10 hours out of their air-tight packaging. can anyone shed some light on this? > I do have a Hobbyaire fresh air respirator that I use for > sanding. It pumps fresh air from a distant location to a face mask. Works > great! > i am considering buying one, do they have one that supplies more than a single respirator? anyone else have any comments on the hobbyaire? --- bill kleb (w.l.kleb@larc.nasa.gov) 73 bellanca 7gcbc citabria 99(?) kleb cozy iv From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: No Epoxy Reaction -- Yeah, right! (fwd) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 14:05:28 EST william l kleb writes: >one thing that bothers me is that the eaa tech who gave >the painting lecture at an oshkosh forum this year claimed >that the active portion of the carbon filter is not >effective after about 10 hours out of their air-tight >packaging. can anyone shed some light on this? This has got to be crap. I know for a fact that I have used filters that were anywhere from a couple of months to a couple of years old which have worked fine. I use an activated carbon filter for our drinking water, and it lasts about a year. The carbon eventually wears out, but NOT from contact with air - from contact with the stuff it's filtering OUT. If I wear my 10 month old mask, I'm fine, if I don't, I get a reaction. It works. Period. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com From: Sid Lloyd Subject: RE: Home made Air Respirator Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:04:30 -0600 Several people have reported great success with using the tiny Shop-Vac as the blower source. You can mount it outside the shop (noise abatement dontchaknow) and pipe the air in. Sid From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Material Safety Data Sheets Date: Mon, 27 Nov 95 9:41:38 EST People; Judd Stewart wrote to me that he was looking into MSDS info. I just found an MSDS repository on the WWW at: gopher://atlas.chem.utah.edu/11/MSDS It's indexed alphabetically by chemical name, but it's got a LOT of info there. Eventually I'll put a link on the COZY reference page to it.... but you can visit it now! (Looks like the chemistry department at the University of Utah, or somesuch). -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 20:22:28 -0800 From: gbowen@ix.netcom.com (Gordon Bowen) Subject: Re: 2183-2410 Epoxy system (fwd) Dear Marc, I've been off the net since before Oshkosh, had over 900 e-mail messages to catch up on. The selling of the Resin Group of Hexcel to HB Fuller and my subsequent semi-retirement to UTAH has taken me away from my net crusing. Please note new address. Gordon Bowen 3608 Tyler Ave. Ogden UT. Ph- 1-801-394-5537 Fx 1-801-394-1353 Regarding the continued avail. of Safe-t-poxy and RAE type epoxy systems. We're going to make the old RAE and 2183/2184/2187 hardeners plus 2409/2410 resins. HB Fuller is a big glue company and has decide the problems with litigation in the homebuilt market plus MDA in the hardeners is not their cup of tea. They've advised all current distributors of these products that they will not be producing them. Too bad for Fuller. Fact is, these particular epoxy systems above have a very long and unblemished track record in this industry. They work well. No other epoxy systems have track records in long term exposure in gas tank applications and no known failures due to delamination in a structural homebuilt part. These facts, considering the vast difference in the skills and working conditions of homebuilders over the last 21 years of EZ's and Cozy's and initial Lancairs, etc., indicate that they are almost fool-proof. The Epolite 2427 systems, developed to replace the Safe-t-poxy line, are based on MXDA, a chemical alternative to MDA, but for the last two years I've fielded enough complaints from homebuilder to know that this system is not as fool proof as Safe-t-poxy or RAE. The MXDA goes thru a "cheesy" cure stage that allows for delamination and the waxy feel you get when the laminate is fresh and only partially cured. Everyone should make note, MDA is a animal carcinogen. But I suspect all amine curatives that can react in the same manner as amino acids in forming parts of animal DNA will cause mutations in the DNA. Therefore any curative used for epoxy resins should be used with care. Minimal skin contact, ventilation, etc. The best part about amine curatives is the fact they generally make you break out in a rash before you allow yourself excessive contact to the point of mutation of your DNA. Unfortunately, nothing I've ever found, and I and the entire epoxy/urethane industry are still looking, cures at room temp system like MDA. It was rat tested for carcinogenic possible activity because it was used almost everywhere a room temp epoxy or urethane was used. To the best of my knowledge, no-one anywhere has ever had cancer from this product. The first manufacturer in the world was Bayer AG of Germany, my first employer in 1966. We distilled MDA, washed up equipment coated in MDA, got it all over us, etc. Last point. The names for the Safe-t-poxy like products will be EZ- 83, EZ- 84 and EZ- 87 for the various cure time hardeners, and the resins are EZ- 09 and EZ- 10 for the two viscosity resins. The lawyers suggest the use of the name Safe-t-poxy would be mis-leading the customer to believe these systems are any more or less safe than other epoxy systems as they relate to possible carcinogens. I can assure any builder, on my honor as a 23 yr. member of the EAA that these systems have the pedigree they would expect, I've been the product manager for 7 years and they were my pets and the market has been a long time hobby. We'll be selling via Alexander Aero, Spruce, etc. by January 1996. Also directly to the enduser via our stock, if needed. RAE will be available directly to the end user, too. The distributors don't want to mess with this small volume product. Distributors currently have stocks of Safe-t-poxy. If anyone has questions, they can call me directly or e-mail/fax. Thanks and best regards- Gordon Bowen From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Latex gloves Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 11:00:32 EST People; While watching Nova on PBS the other night, I discovered what it is in latex gloves that causes allergies. Turns out that due to AIDS and heightened use of gloves all over the place, the latex glove manufacturers have been scrambling to ramp up production, and have lowered the time that the gloves spend in the wash after being molded. So, more of some specific plant protein (latex is natural rubber, after all) stays on the gloves, and some people are allergic to this particular protein. After all our discussions about gloves, I thought this was interesting. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com