Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 20:06:09 -0400 From: NBalog@aol.com Subject: Canopy Hinges Here's another one... I'll make it short. just HOW FAR out does the forward part of the forward hinge and the aft part of the aft hinge stick out into the airstream anyway? I haven't gotten mine floxed down yet, but the front one hangs out about a half an inch, ditto for the rear one. Seems like a lot. there's also about .25" of the aft part of the forward hinge hanging overboard INside the fuselage. Who's going to be the first person to tell me I screwed up bad? I think this will work anyway, I can still get good spacing for the screws, but... Anyone else have a similar situation? Thanks. -Norm From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Canopy Hinges Date: Wed, 2 Aug 95 15:07:36 EDT Norm B. asks; >just HOW FAR out does the forward part of the forward hinge and the aft part >of the aft hinge stick out into the airstream anyway? I haven't gotten mine >floxed down yet, but the front one hangs out about a half an inch, ditto for >the rear one. Seems like a lot. there's also about .25" of the aft part of >the forward hinge hanging overboard INside the fuselage. After seeing your question before heading off to OSHKOSH, I remembered to look at the MKIV's and 3's that were there for this particular issue. As far as I could tell, the front one hangs out about the 0.5" you indicate, and the rear one just about as much. Sounds like you've got them in the right place. The aft part of the forward hinge seemed to be flush with the inside of the longeron, but I'm sure there's some tolerance, so you can probably just file off the overhang so as not to slice your passenger to shreds. >Who's going to be the first person to tell me I screwed up bad? Not I. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 16:22:06 -0400 From: CozyBldr@aol.com Subject: Re: Canopy Hinges In a message dated 95-07-26 20:14:44 EDT, Norm writes: >just HOW FAR out does the forward part of the forward hinge and the aft part >of the aft hinge stick out into the airstream anyway? I haven't gotten mine >floxed down yet, but the front one hangs out about a half an inch, ditto for >the rear one. Seems like a lot. there's also about .25" of the aft part of >the forward hinge hanging overboard INside the fuselage. My aft hinge sticks out a little (1/4"?) but I haven't put the front hinge on yet. If I place it where the plans show, it will stick out a good 1/2". I'm going to cheat a little and move it aft a bit so it doesn't stick out quite so much. On a completed Mark IV (Chuck Wolcott's), I noticed the front hinge did stick out quite a bit so I don't think Norm screwed up. Paul S. Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 23:53:18 -0400 From: JIMWHI@aol.com Subject: Turtleback Constr. Eric: I went back to my original plan of using the "scored" Clark foam method instead of the way shown in the plans. After cutting 0.016" AL shim stock, tape, and fussing with six inch wide strips of 1/4" Clark foam I decided there must be a better way. Instead of using whole 2'X4' sheets of scored 1/4" Clark foam, I cut them down to strips that were wide enough to go from the center of one lattice member to the next. Instead of using six inch wide strips that go from side to side, I use four foot strips that go from front to back. The center piece of foam can span two lattices without being cut. Before tacking the foam pieces to the Turtleback jig I "scored" the foam by making 1/8" deep cuts length and cross ways in the foam on one inch center. I tack the foam to the jig with VERY small dabs of 5-Min/flox. Because all the joints occur over a lattice there is little if any gap between the foam strips. You will have to do some careful sanding to get them to match up nicely, but its no big deal. Not having completed the turtleback, I can't tell you just how successful this will all be, but so far it looks great. It eliminates a lot of fussy fitting, shim stock, masking tape, and should result in a nicely contoured turtleback. Any extra micro used to fill up the scoring marks on the exterior should be more than made up in reduced filler that might otherwise be needed on top of the fiberglass (I hope). I'll keep you posted on my progress. Jim White Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 00:41:00 -0400 From: KSPREUER@aol.com Subject: Rear Windows I've been installing the rear windows in the tutleback and it seems that there is either an error in the dimensions for cutting the window holes or Feather Lite is supplying the wrong sized windows. The window is supposed to be 3/4" bigger than the hole all the way around, but the windows I received are actually smaller in some directions. I wrote to Nat to bring it to his attention but until he is able to resolve the problem I wanted to warn you all to watch out. I hadn't cut the hole before I checked by holding the window up to the lines I planned to cut. So, it was easy to correct the problem by adjusting the hole to fit the windows. I don't know at this point, though, if I have non-standard sized windows or not. Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 14:40:15 -0500 "Marc J. Zeitlin" From: tims@enet.net (Tim Sullivan) Subject: Re: Rear Windows >I've been installing the rear windows in the tutleback and it seems that >there is either an error in the dimensions for cutting the window holes or >Feather Lite is supplying the wrong sized windows. The window is supposed to >be 3/4" bigger than the hole all the way around, but the windows I received >are actually smaller in some directions. I wrote to Nat to bring it to his >attention but until he is able to resolve the problem I wanted to warn you >all to watch out. I hadn't cut the hole before I checked by holding the >window up to the lines I planned to cut. So, it was easy to correct the >problem by adjusting the hole to fit the windows. I don't know at this point, >though, if I have non-standard sized windows or not. Did you buy the turtle back from Featherlite? I was thinking of doing this myself to of course save time. Who are the windows from, the supplier that is in the manual? Tim Sullivan (tims@enet.net) Phoenix, AZ | * | Cozy MK IV Builder #470 |-----(/)-----| The journey begins 8/10/95 / \ o o Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:17:06 -0400 From: KSPREUER@aol.com Subject: Re: Rear Windows In a message dated 95-09-13 05:09:43 EDT, you write: >Did you buy the turtle back from Featherlite? I was thinking of doing this >myself to of course save time. Who are the windows from, the supplier that >is in the manual? > >Tim Sullivan (tims@enet.net) >Phoenix, AZ > > No, I made the Turtle back per the plans and was about to cut the holes for the rear windows when I discovered the problem. The windows are from Fox Lite the reccomended supplier. From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Re: Rear Windows (fwd) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 95 16:01:28 EDT > Tim S. wrote: >>Did you buy the turtle back from Featherlite? I was thinking of doing this >>myself to of course save time. Who are the windows from, the supplier that >>is in the manual? Keith S. wrote: >No, I made the Turtle back per the plans and was about to cut the holes for >the rear windows when I discovered the problem. The windows are from Fox >Lite the reccomended supplier. Last I saw, the approved vendor for Canopies and Windows was: Airplane Plastics Co. 8300 Dayton Rd. Fairborn, OH 45324 (513) 864-5607 -- Marc J. Zeitlin Mail Stop: MS-460 Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 18:51:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Westland I did a few things different in the construction of my turtle back that I thought might be of interest. That's not to say it is the best way, just the way I chose. BTW, I need to credit Jim White for some good ideas along the way. I made my jig out of scrap plywood from a house being built nearby. If I was to buy material, I would suggest particle board. It's plenty strong enough, is dimensionally stable and "let's go" of cured parts easier than plywood. It's also cheaper. I found that I had to add a good deal of corner bracing to keep everything square - I probably over-built it, but it was accurate. The turtle back used to be made out of Clark foam, but now you can only get that other stuff which is what I used. I tried scoring it about 1/16" deep in 1" squares like I have in the past with the Clark (to help it bend easier), but I found that this made it too easy to break. It bends just fine without scoring. You will find that the first piece of foam goes in the jig just fine no mater what shape you make it, but that after that, every edge need to be customized to accommodate the compound curves. I chose to lay my pieces in lengthwise rather than from "longeron to longeron" and this worked just fine. I cut the foam joints so they would meet over the slats, so I did not have to mess with the 1/16" shims to avoid bumps. After repairing the hole my three year old son put in the foam with his hand, glassing it all was easy enough. I did add some peel ply to avoid future sanding along the bottom of the drip rail. You will remove foam later and add a few plies for stiffness, so this seemed like a good idea (looked like a bugger to sand). I made my own windows out of extra stock that I purchased from Airplane Plastics. They sold me enough for about $35 which is considerably less than the $150 they charge for the pre-made ones (they do a nice job, but this was a chance to save a few bucks). To make the windows, I first tried to lay out the dimensions from the plans. Something was goofy, either me or the plans, but it didn't work out, so I did my own layout using the plans as a guide. BTW, in talking with Jeff at Airplane Plastics, he realized that he had been supplying windows the wrong size for the Mark IV. So, if you had cut your holes out first, the windows didn't fit. Jeff is a good guy and will make new windows for those that ran into this. I imagine most of you that are this far simply traced the windows you had onto the turtle back and never even noticed. After laying it out, I hot glued a straight board along the bottom of the window line. Above this board I placed a terry cloth bath towel (don't let my wife know) to protect the plastic from scratching. I then took my window blanks and heated them up in the oven at 300 degrees for about 15 minutes. The smaller window fits on a cookie sheet, but the larger one did not, so I used a sheet of particle board. It worked pretty good although it did not fill the house with the smell of fresh-baked cookies :-). Once heated, I made the mad dash down to the basement and laid the flexible plastic over where it goes on the turtle back. An extra pair of oven-mitted hands would come in handy here to help hold it in place while it cools. It did shrink about 1/8 " all around. They ended up fitting pretty good although since you are placing them on the outside of the turtle back, you end up with a slightly different radius. Purests will want to make a mold if they decide to do it this way. As with all of this, it takes more time than you think it would. Later, Eric Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 02:02:28 -0500 From: KSPREUER@aol.com Subject: Re: Canopy Response to message attached. I used the B.L. 0 template per the plans and added the .7" to F28. I did have to trim the plastic at the instrument panel some to make the template fit. I didn't notice a problem. If you geet any more info send it along, I'll try to help. By the way there is a fantastic tool for trimming fibergalss and works great on the plastic too. Its a very thin composit circular saw blade about 2" in diameter called a "TUF-GRIND". I got mine at the local hobby shop. The company is at 10101 Yucca Rd, Adelanto, CA. They come with or without an 1/8" spindle that works with a dremel. I use mine with a right angle air driven die grinder. This combination is exceptional at cutting is cool and easy to control. In a message dated 95-10-29 01:27:55 EST, you write: >Subj: Canopy >Date: 95-10-29 01:27:55 EST >From: ewestlan@eagle.esd189.wednet.edu (Eric Westland) >To: KSPREUER@aol.com (K Spreuer) > > >I am in the process of cutting on my canopy and I while it is going fine >so far, it always bugs me when I something I am doing does not jive with >the plans. I am making the initial cuts on the rear corners and around >the top of the instrument panel. In the meantime, I have been checking >it with the "B.L. 0" template and it is this template that does not seem >to match what I am doing. I am wondering if it may be wrong since F-28 >needed to be raised from 3.3" to 4.0" - possibly the template needed to >be changed as well. I will need to cut some more away around the top of >the instrument panel to get the rear edge of the canopy to align with the >relief made in the turtle back for it. > >Anyways, sound familiar or did yours go in just fine "per plans". > >Thanks for the help, > >Eric > > > > >----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From ewestlan@eagle.esd189.wednet.edu Sun Oct 29 01:27:59 1995 >Return-Path: ewestlan@eagle.esd189.wednet.edu >Received: from eagle.esd189.wednet.edu (eagle.esd189.wednet.edu >[164.116.17.5]) by emin09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA29492 >for ; Sun, 29 Oct 1995 01:27:58 -0500 >Received: by eagle.esd189.wednet.edu (5.x/SMI-SVR4-EAGLE1) > id AA10758; Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:27:13 -0700 >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 23:27:13 -0700 (PDT) >From: Eric Westland >To: K Spreuer >Subject: Canopy >Message-Id: > >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 00:21:41 -0500 From: JIMWHI@aol.com Subject: AeroCanard Canopy/Turtleback Video Jeff Russell was kind enough to send me a video showing their turtleback and canopy installation. This video explains how their canopy is installed in their turtleback/fuselage top that extends from FS-0 all the way to the spinner. If you are considering using Jeff's prefabricated turtleback and canopy which fits the standard Mark IV tub, send me your name and address and I'll send you the tape. The first E-mail that gets to me get's the tape. I'll then e-mail the rest of the builders to let them know who got it. Jeff's method and materials should save a lot of time and should result in a light top with a smooth finish from front to back. Let me know if you are interested. Jim White Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 10:39:52 -0800 (PST) From: Eric Westland Subject: Canopy Thoughts A month or so ago, I posted a problem that I was having with the B.L.0 template not matching up with the front of the canopy. Thanks to Chuck W. and Kyle D. (who even called) for their help. The template worked out ok for them and it was a goof-up somewhere on my part that caused the mis-match. I cut on the canopy with the patience of a diamond cutter - just a little at a time and still made it too small to match the template. The trick is to get the correct profile while not ending up with having to add a lot of micro to fill in the dip between the turtle back and the canopy. But it all worked out ok and the canopy is now all glassed. A few pointers to add to your plans if you are not there yet. I cut the plexiglass with the fiberglass reinforced cut off disks for a Dremel. They work great for just about any cutting. My dremel motor was getting hot, so I chucked the cutter up in my air-driven die grinder and it really horsed through the material. As a side benefit, the exhaust is out the front, so it keeps the dust off the cut line. I never put oil in it so I don't have to worry about contamination. When it comes time to flox the turtleback to the canopy, the plans call for a small sticks to be bondo'd to the lower corners for clamping, but I cut a little extra away from the canopy in these corners and used small c-clamps. This area gets a lot of glass on it later anyways and you get a nicer fit. Install your hinges on the longerons, but do not flox them in place until you are all done with the canopy. There were a couple of times I wished they could have been temporarily removed. If you get the chance, get together with other builders in your area and order windshields together. They have to come by truck (too big for UPS) and you can get several in a box. I used 3/4" wide electrical tape to mask the canopy as it contours itself to the canopy much better than the 2" wide plastic tape. I did use the 2" plastic tape where I has a 2" radius to make (the lower back corners). Hope this helps, Eric Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:03:47 -0500 From: KSPREUER@aol.com Subject: CANOPY TRIM AT FRONT END CAUTION: The plans call for the forward edge of the canopy to be cut from the forward fuselage cover (instrument cover) along a line that is 3.5" away from the forward acrylic curvature and ends up 5.5" aft of the aft face of the intstrument panel and the point over the longerons. This put that cut line extremely close to the forward latch on the left side of the canopy. I was off by .4" and have to relocate that attach point. It is the forward screw that retains the latch pin on the canopy that is the critical spot. I recommend measuring very carfully here and any error should be on the side less than 5.5" (closer to the instrument panel)