From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: Cozy MK-IV's Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 8:46:52 MST Hi Marc, > Well, I've got my basement almost set up, I've ordered tools and parts for > Chapter 4 from AS, Wicks, and Alexanders, and it sounds like you're about 1 > month ahead of me. I'm starting to put together a WWW page for building > it, sort of like the Velocity page at: > > http://www-msy-me.an.hp.com/~marcz/cozy_mkIV/cozy_MKIV.html I just checked it out. That's pretty neat! I've got to learn how to do that some time. I still have to build the 3' x 12' table yet and make it come apart. The house we bought is not ideal for homebuilding. The basement steps go around a corner so nothing longer than about 6' will fit up through there. I can do the bulkheads and maybe the sides down there but eventually I'll have to move into the unheated garage. There are probably a number of items I can still make in the basement, like the canard and the spar and control surfaces but if I want to build year-round, I'm going to have to figure out a way to get into a heated shop with a big door. I don't think my wife would appreciate me commandeering the garage. By the way, I'm attempting to put all of the bulkheads into ME30 or just ME10 and create HPGL files which I plot on a DesignJet 650. Are you interested in these files? Nat's drawings are pretty small and so you have to tape 4 pieces together as well as trace (in mirror image) some of the drawings that are symmetrical (like F22 & F28). I don't know if you are familiar with ME10 (Are you an ME, EE, or CS type?) , but the HPGL files would be easy to send to a plotter if you have and E-sized plotter around. Lee From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: Test of Mailing List Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 16:40:26 MST Hi Marc, > I started cutting my fuselage bulkheads this last weekend; I'll probably do > the layups next weekend. How're you doing? I wanted to assemble a heated epoxy pump cabinet, a cloth cabinet, a roll around workbench and a jig table first. I bought most of the materials for these things yesterday. After I assemble these things then I'll start the bulkheads. I've input the seatback and f28 bulkhead to ME10/30. (I assume you got these.) I have about half of the f22 bulkhead input into ME10. Are you cutting you bulkheads from the ME10 templates or by copying and taping together Nat's drawings? Lee From: Lee Devlin Subject: Plans change questions Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 18:07:13 MST Well, it looks like I'll be the first to post a question to the Cozy builders mailing list. I'm just starting out so my questions are very elementary. #1: I noticed that the amount of 3/4" PVC foam that's used for the front seat back has changed from 1 sheet of 32x48 to 1.5 sheets. However this foam isn't used anywhere else in the plane and the single sheet seems more than adequate for the seat back. What am I missing here? #2: In newsletter #38 there is a change to the position of the hole for nose gear tube on F22. Its I.D. was reduced from 1" to 3/4" and stated that it should be 'off center' but didn't say how much 'off center' or in which direction. Anyone know the answer to this? If no one responds, I'll give Nat a call but thought I could avoid that if any of you have already figured this out. On a related note, I'm inputting the bulkheads to a CAD system so that I can print them out on one sheet and thereby eliminate the need to trace them and do the mirror projections by hand. If anyone is interested, I can convert them to .DXF files and maybe make them available over the net. I've only done F22 (with the new more rounded curvature) and the front seat back so far, but will probably finish up f28 and the instrument panel up over the next week or so. Lee Devlin Date: Tue, 7 Feb 95 13:07:07 EST Subject: Mailing List Members/personal progress People; Well, I thought it would be a good time to publish a mailing-list members list, and toot my horn a bit as to some progress I've made (as well as ask a technical question). Here goes: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) LIST: (cozy_builders@hpwarhw.an.hp.com) 2/7/95 Marc J. Zeitlin Cozy Builders E-Mail Mailing List --------------------------------- Name Address ---- ------- Allan Aaron allana@interconnect.com.au Michael Antares mantares@crl.com Martin Cameron BuckyStarr@aol.com Richard William Crapse rwcrapse@eos.ncsu.edu Lee Devlin leed@gr.hp.com Sid Lloyd SidLloyd@aol.com Eric Westland Ewestland@aol.com Marc Zeitlin marcz@an.hp.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) Personal Progress: Almost through with Chapter 4 (Bulkheads) - I'll probably finish up the Firewall glassing and Instrument Panel reinforcements this weekend. Oooh, Boy, one chapter down, 25 to go!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) Question: On some of my layups, I'm noticing a small amount of air in the layup (I guess its a little dry) after cure. I don't notice the bubbles when the glass is wet. The instructions say to not use any part with more than 10% (by area) air bubbles. I don't think I'm in that range. I've been peel plying the whole layup and rolling each layer out with the 3" rollers, and as I said, the layup looks good when wet (and with the peel ply on). When I built the Q2, I would pour the epoxy on and squeegee it around with the squeegee, and the plane came out a bit overweight (maybe 30 lbs). This time, I'm painting the epoxy on with a brush and not squeegeeing at all (yet). Obviously, I'm not getting quite enough epoxy on the layups, and although its not at the danger point, I'd like to have better control of the dryness without adding too much weight. Anyone have any advice here? -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com From: Lee Devlin Subject: Instrument holes Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 16:20:51 MST Is it better to cut the instrument holes before installing the instrument panel in the fuselage? In the Cozy instructions, there's some conflicting advice about it. On the template, it says not to cut any holes until you have the instruments in hand. The second piece of advice written in the manual says to cut all the holes except those you are unsure about. Is it difficult to cut the holes after the panel has been installed? I really haven't thought enough about what I'd like to install and where I'd like to put and as such would prefer to let it go until later. Also, what's the best way to cut the 3" holes in the panel? Thanks, Lee Devlin From: Lee Devlin Subject: landing gear bulkheads Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 16:26:29 MST Hi Marc, Since you've just been through this, I'd like to know how the landing gear bulkheads are installed. Are there actually three of them? I've been reading ahead but it's not obvious to be what the third one is for. There's a front, a back, and evidently, a piece that forms a part of the back seat? Is this correct? Thanks, Lee p.s. I've finished the f22 bulkhead template and will email you a copy as soon as I verify it's OK. Your WWW homepage that accessible to the world sounds like a neat idea. I'm sure it will give some builders that excuse they neat to finally get 'on-line'. Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 18:42:36 EST Subject: Re: landing gear bulkheads Lee; >Since you've just been through this, I'd like to know how the landing >gear bulkheads are installed. Are there actually three of them? I've >been reading ahead but it's not obvious to be what the third one is for. >There's a front, a back, and evidently, a piece that forms a part of the >back seat? Is this correct? The rear LGB is one piece; the front LGB is two pieces. The front lower and rear have the 22 layer BID pads in them - the front upper looks like it's got BIG ears, and is just a few layers of BID and UNI (with angles on the top and bottom edges to match up with the lower front and the LW[X or Y] stringers). I'm at work, so I don't know the exact numbers or letters. Look carefully at the M-? plan which has the side view of the rear LG bulkhead area on it - it helps a lot. It shows the rear LGB and the front lower go into the fuselage vertically, and (as you suspect) the front top goes in at an angle and helps form the rear seat back, as well as being part of the LG bulkheads. Also, the templates show a break line at the joint between the top and bottom front LGB, although once you glass all that into the fuselage sides, it becomes one big piece. >p.s. I've finished the f22 bulkhead template and will email you a copy > as soon as I verify it's OK. Your WWW homepage that accessible > to the world sounds like a neat idea. I'm sure it will give some > builders that excuse they neat to finally get 'on-line'. Excellent. I hope so. -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 18:48:25 EST Subject: Re: Instrument holes Lee; >Is it better to cut the instrument holes before installing the >instrument panel in the fuselage? In the Cozy instructions, there's >some conflicting advice about it. On the template, it says not to cut >any holes until you have the instruments in hand. The second piece of >advice written in the manual says to cut all the holes except those you >are unsure about. I was unsure about everything (like you seem to be), so I didn't cut anything and figured I'd discover some way of cleanly cutting the holes (both 3 1/8" and 2 1/4", as well as the rectangular ones for the radios, etc.) later. >Is it difficult to cut the holes after the panel has been installed? I >really haven't thought enough about what I'd like to install and where >I'd like to put and as such would prefer to let it go until later. >Also, what's the best way to cut the 3" holes in the panel? I figured a SHARP 3 1/8" hole saw (if I can find one) or else a 3" hole saw, and then drum sand the rest off with a drill. I've had good luck cutting the bulkheads with the jig saw (as long as I keep my fingers out of the way :-) ) if there are more than 3 glass layers, or with a hand held hacksaw blade if there are 3 or less layers. A sanding block with 36 grit takes glass off fast on edges, and makes them nice and straight. I'll be interested to see what others say. -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com From: Lee Devlin Subject: Bulkhead template question... Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 15:05:25 MST What is the best way to mark and cut out bulkhead templates? So far, I've been making the drawings on a CAD system and then splitting them up into individual parts and then nesting them as closely as possible to save foam. I leave enough room so that the curf of my sabre saw doesn't cut out any material from adjacent pieces. The low density foam for the seatback cut pretty easily with an Exacto knife and I was able to put a nice bevel on it with a table saw. However, the .2" 18lb foam for F22, F28, and the instrument panel is a little too dense to cut with a razor so I've been using a sabre saw. A bare hacksaw blade also works but takes a long time. I cut pretty close to the pencil line and then use a sanding block with 80 grit to straighten it out and sand up to the line. Now I need to glue the pieces together with some 5 minute epoxy. I intend to lay wax paper or saran wrap over the full-sized template printout which will be laid over some 1/2" styrofoam and then pin the parts down to keep them in place while they dry. As I've been doing this, I've been wondering how others have done it. I used pins to hold the paper to the foam then I cut the paper with an Exacto knife and then traced around the paper with a pencil. I've tried a stationary scroll saw, a fine tooth hobby saw, and finally settled on my sabre saw for cutting out the part from the foam. I use a table saw to get the some of the straight edges squared up. The parts do not come out quite as perfectly as the templates but I think they'll be all right. Is there an easier way to do this that I haven't thought of yet? I've been a little curious as to how you'd do it if you had traced the templates, as Nat recommends. It seems that you need trace them twice - once to make the split up individual parts and again to make the full-sized templates. Thanks, Lee Devlin Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 17:21:25 EST Subject: Re: Bulkhead template question... >....................I leave enough room so that the curf of my sabre ^^^^ to pick a nit................................it's kerf. >The low density foam for the seatback cut pretty easily with an Exacto >knife and I was able to put a nice bevel on it with a table saw. >However, the .2" 18lb foam for F22, F28, and the instrument panel is a >little too dense to cut with a razor so I've been using a sabre saw. A >bare hacksaw blade also works but takes a long time. I cut pretty close >to the pencil line and then use a sanding block with 80 grit to >straighten it out and sand up to the line. I used (and use) a sharp utility knife to cut ALL foam when I can (it makes no foam dust. the .2" stuff is tough, but if you use a sharp knife and make a few passes, it cuts. >............... The parts do not come >out quite as perfectly as the templates but I think they'll be all >right. Boy, you're a perfectionist. (I say that with admiration). I don't have the patience for all that. I've found that you tend to cover up all the edges of everything with 2 BID later, and what the edges look like don't mean anything. I may end up using 1 lb. extra flox to fill some of the gaps, but the extra time isn't worth the effort for perfect bulkheads (to me). >Is there an easier way to do this that I haven't thought of yet? I've >been a little curious as to how you'd do it if you had traced the >templates, as Nat recommends. It seems that you need trace them twice - >once to make the split up individual parts and again to make the >full-sized templates. I didn't even bother tracing the bulkheads - I just cut out the templates from his plans with a sharp scissors. I'm only building one; I won't need them again :-) (although I'm saving everything). I put the template on the foam, trace the outline with a sharp pencil, flip it for the mirror image, trace again, and then cut out with the utility knife. I sand edges if necessary for shape or angles with a sanding block and 36 grit. Again, I'm a quality seeker, but not a perfectionist - I'm not building a show plane and I know it. However, I won't compromise on layup quality or safety, for obvious reasons. -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com From: Lee Devlin Subject: Re: Bulkhead template question... Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 16:52:12 MST Hi Marc, Thanks for your advice. > > >....................I leave enough room so that the curf of my sabre > ^^^^ > to pick a nit................................it's kerf. Wow, did I murder that one. And I even knew how to spell it correctly. I often look on in abject horror after I've read something that I've written that someone quotes with carets (>). I've written 'to' where I needed 'too', "it's" where I should have written "its", "your" where it should have been "you're" and a whole host of other things that I really do know are wrong. It amazes me how many of those things escape my attention while I'm feverishly typing away. > Boy, you're a perfectionist. (I say that with admiration). I don't have > the patience for all that. I've found that you tend to cover up all the > edges of everything with 2 BID later, and what the edges look like don't > mean anything. I may end up using 1 lb. extra flox to fill some of the > gaps, but the extra time isn't worth the effort for perfect bulkheads (to > me). I am really not a perfectionist, just a first timer who doesn't know the relative importance of certain building aspects. I'm sure glad that I have you to help explain them to me. Thanks again, Lee Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 16:24:40 PST From: "Michael Antares" Subject: Bulkheads... In response to Lee's questions, I have just about finished chapter 4 so I will pass on how I resolved some of these issues. Others have undoubtably done it in a different and perhaps better way. For transferring the patterns to the foam, I first traced the drawing on the back of the furnished drawing to create the mirror image. I found I could do this without holding them up to a window (I could see through the drawing even when it was on my workbench). I then purchased graphite tracing paper from an art supply store. The sheets were large enough to do about a quarter of a drawing at a time so I taped the drawing to the foam with drafting tape, copied what I could, moved the tracing paper and finished the copy. This worked easily and well. I then found that I could cut even the .2 inch high density foam using a larger exacto blade and knife. I used a straight edge where possible. It was harder to use the xacto blade around curves so there I tended to cut slightly outside of the desired line and finish with a sanding device (I say device because I am using a set of carbide sanding tools that I used to use when building big RC's--I think these are the greatest for working with fiberglass and foam). I didn't have any issues with positioning the patterns on the foam and in fact ended up with quite a bit of surplus--however I did (for example) divide F22 up into several individual pieces which I glued together. Michael Antares Software/Hardware Systems Engineering mantares@crl.com Santa Rosa, California From: "Richard William Crapse" Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 13:08:48 -0500 Subject: Instrument Panel I chose not to cut any of the holes until after I am finished with the nose Section(ie. gear retract mechanism). That way I can tell How much space I will be able to work with. I got this advice from a Long-Ez/Vari-Eze/Co-Z builder and restorer. He has rebuilt/built/restored 18 of these type aircraft. Also he suggested that by waiting, if anything new came out I liked, my panel could be customed for it (ie. 3" panel mounted GPS). Rick Crapse "if a shoebox had wings, I'd make it fly!"---Rocketeer -- 'All the power in the Universe, but an itty,bitty,little living space'---- Aladin(genie) 'If it 's got wings, I'll fly it'--Pilot 'And let me know when Elvis shows up...'----Beldar Conehead Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 07:09:23 -0500 (EST) From: pathways Subject: Re: Bulkhead template question... Lee, In creating the bulkheads I took the plans to a copy center, Kinkos, that has the ability to copy the templates. For templates that show only half the picture I made to copies and taped them together at the center line. I then traced these on the foam with a marker. I am using markers that are used to write on clear overhead projector slides. They seem to show up really well. At cut the bulkheads with a sabre saw a little oversize and then sanded the edges down eith by hand or by fixed base belt sander(from sears, about $100). I am pleased with how they turned out. Since that time I bought a band saw. I have really come to appreciate it and would have used it for some of the cuts on the bulkheads. I hope this is helps you. ...Marty Kansky Cozy N321CZ Chapter 7 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 07:15:36 -0500 (EST) From: pathways Subject: Re: Instrument holes Lee, I didn't cut the holes in the instrument panel. Like yourself I am not sure what I am planning to install. For cutting large holes, 3 inch, I plan to use a drill attachment for cutting holes in doors for installing doorknobs and such. I am sure for there are other drill attachments to get the desired hole diameter for the instruments. My advice, keep moving on and get back to this one later! ...Marty Kansky Cozy N321CZ On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, Lee Devlin wrote: > Is it better to cut the instrument holes before installing the > instrument panel in the fuselage? In the Cozy instructions, there's > some conflicting advice about it. On the template, it says not to cut > any holes until you have the instruments in hand. The second piece of > advice written in the manual says to cut all the holes except those you > are unsure about. > > Is it difficult to cut the holes after the panel has been installed? I > really haven't thought enough about what I'd like to install and where > I'd like to put and as such would prefer to let it go until later. > > Also, what's the best way to cut the 3" holes in the panel? > > Thanks, > > Lee Devlin > Date: Thu, 23 Mar 95 18:27:40 EST Subject: Re: MK IV page is looking HOT! Lee; >I just got done looking at your major updates to your Cozy MK IV pages. >They are looking really cool. I'm learning a lot by reading your >progress. There's something about having additional (color) pictures to >look at that clears up a lot of questions. Thanks. I've decided to sign up with an internet service provider (or did I tell everyone that already?) and will probably have an externally accessible page available sometime next week. I've been trying to clean up my stuff to make it expandible (you can see the hooks to get to other people's projects). If you want to create your own pages, I'd be happy to put them up there..... I get 5 MB free space. Also, if you need any help with HTML, just yell. If you haven't seen the George Venkatesh's Velocity page at: "ftp://flash.bellcore.com/pub/venky/www/Velocity.html" or the RV page at: "http://atlantis.austin.apple.com/people.pages/jhovan/home.html" Take a look. Some people have done some very nice stuff, and I'd like to do the same for the Cozy. >......................... For example, I was wondering >if one should cut the rectangular (non-leg) holes in the instrument >panel before or after glassing. It appears you did it before glassing. >That's probably how I'll do it too. I don't think there was a lot of rhyme or reason to the decisions I made about which holes to cut and which to wait on. I cut the non-instrument holes, but it wouldn't be a big deal to cut them after glassing the I.P. into the fuselage sides. >................................... Speaking of the bulkheads, >is there any treatment for the edges? That is, do you wrap the glass >around the edge to meet up with the back side or there just exposed foam >on the edges of the bulkheads (unlike the seat back)? Just leave the foam exposed, unless there are explicit instructions to do otherwise (like on the seatback or the forward landing gear bulkhead). The Q2 was different; they always had a glass to glass joint on the bulkhead edges, but I don't think there's a real structural difference - once you've taped the bulkheads into the fuselage sides and bottom, the edges are not doing much anyway. For the edges exposed on the INSIDE of the fuselage, I'll probably hollow them out and fill with dry micro at some later point (unless instructed to do otherwise) just to have a good painting surface. That might not even be necessary. >(about to start glassing the other bulkheads) Keep up the good work. Take some pictures and scan them in. I'd like to see what you're up to. Hey, you've got anonymous ftp, right? You can set up a poor man's WWW page without even setting up a server. You can practice on that, and then I can put your stuff on the outside. >p.s. I've been communicating with Andreas about building a Cozy. Have you convinced him yet? I've been working on him, but no commitments yet, although he keeps saying the MKIV is the only plane he thinks he can afford. -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 21:29:06 -0700 From: Lee Devlin Subject: File leeu2020.zip Submitted Submitted To: leed@gr.hp.com marcz@an.hp.com Submitted With: ggpak (VERSION 3.09 10/10/94) ======================================================================== Additional Comments: Hi Marc, I'm off to Japan tomorrow. I just stopped by work to make a copy of Chapter 5 in 8.5 x 11 format so I could read it over on the plane. I also thought I'd send you two more templates to add to your collection. I've cut out the parts for f22 and the instrument panel and glued them together and they seemed to work pretty well. Now all I have to make are the bulkhead and the firewall templates. There's a half-finished 'readme' file included. I'm about 1/3 (?) through Chapter 4. Hopefully, April will be a more productive month for me. Talk to you in about a week. Lee ======================================================================== Package leeu2020.zip contains the following file(s): Original Compressed Compress Size Size Method File -------- ---------- -------- ----------------------------------- 18270 4578 Deflate f22_topipanel 12585 3398 Deflate instpanel 40573 9192 Deflate sheet1 3929 1863 Deflate templreadme 288 121 Deflate index -------- ---------- -------- ----------------------------------- Total: 75645 19152 It is located in ~pub/files_out/Mar26 on hpgrgo.gr.hp.com. To retrieve "leeu2020.zip" execute one of the following commands: ggpak -g leeu2020.zip get pkg and do default unzip action. Default action determined by Decompress value in .ggprc file. If it is not set then default action is ask me. ggpak -gn leeu2020.zip get pkg and do not unzip. ggpak -gf leeu2020.zip get pkg and unzip it flattening directories ggpak -gp leeu2020.zip get pkg and unzip it preserving directories If you do not have access to the script ggpak, issue the following commands: ftp hpgrgo.gr.hp.com anonymous binary cd pub/files_out/Mar26 get leeu2020.zip bye To manually unzip "leeu2020.zip" execute one of the following commands: unzip -j leeu2020.zip unzip and flatten directories unzip leeu2020.zip unzip and preserve directories ggpak and/or zip/unzip may be ninstalled with the following commands: Note: You must be root to perform the ninstall. To do a full ggpak install including zip/unzip execute: ninstall -vvh hpfcmdd1.fc.hp.com ME30.internal.ggpak To install just zip/unzip tools execute: ninstall -vhaladdin.corp.hp.com -P2150 zip ======================================================================== From: Lee Devlin Subject: mat'l spreadsheet Date: Thu, 6 Apr 95 13:02:52 MDT Hi Marc, I noticed in your logbook that you had made up a material spreadsheet for the Mk IV. Could I get a copy of it from you? I had considered doing this at one time myself but never got around to it. Actually, I did a little spreadsheet on my 100lx for the first order, but if you've already done the whole material list, that would be much more useful. Also, my obligatory construction question. I am doing f22 and was originally debating whether to do the overall 2 ply BID with small individual strips or with large pieces in which I cut out the leg holes during knife trim and essentially waste them. I thought about the difficulty of laying up 16 narrow individual pieces and opted to do the large wasteful method instead. The width of the BID cloth was just barely enough, but it worked. On the seat, the BID wasn't wide enough so I had to overlap two pieces. Is this how you've been doing it? Also what amount of overlap due you use with BID cloth? I know that UNI cloth can be butted together without overlap if there's not enough width. Thanks, Lee From: Lee Devlin Subject: Landing gear bulkheads Date: Wed, 12 Apr 95 20:26:58 MDT Hi Marc, I was just finishing up the landing gear bulkheads CAD files and proceeded to combine them all into one drawing when I noticed that the upper part of the forward landing gear bulkhead didn't look right. I don't have the plans here at work with me so I can't see how this thing gets installed, but I assume it spans at a ~45 deg angle between the front and aft l.g. bulkheads. If that's the case, I think the part should be tapered on the sides. As it stands now, the part is 16.25" centerline to edge on the bottom _and_ on the top. That makes it match up perfectly with the forward bottom piece, but not with the aft bulkhead. The aft bulkhead is 16.1" centerline to edge across the top. Am I missing something? I've just about got the templates all done after I figure out what's going on here. Thanks, Lee p.s. I got an email today from a Cozy builder named Judd Stevenson who said he found your WWW page and noticed that I had input the templates on CAD. He said he already did this himself! I'm going to find out from him how well the templates match up and maybe get the best of both for your WWW page. Also, he's an experienced LongEZ builder and has some ideas about making wing jigs but he needs to slice the wings up on a 3D system. Sounds like a job for SolidDesigner. From: Lee Devlin Subject: Landing gear bulkheads Date: Thu, 13 Apr 95 10:29:30 MDT As some of you may know, I'm putting the Cozy bulkheads into a CAD system to avoid having to trace them and to make them available to other builders with access CAD systems with plotters. Yesterday, as I was inputting the landing gear bulkheads, I noticed something odd about he upper part of the front landing gear. I assume this part spans at a ~45 deg angle between the front and aft l.g. bulkheads. If that's the case, I think the part should be tapered on the sides. As it stands now, the part is 16.25" centerline to edge on the bottom _and_ on the top. That makes it match up perfectly with the forward bottom piece, but not with the aft bulkhead. The aft bulkhead is 16.1" centerline to edge across the top. I know that's only .15" off, but it would be a lot easier to correct now before I make the part than to have to sand it to shape during fuselage assembly. Maybe I'm missing something here. Any suggestions? Lee Devlin Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 13:24:39 -0500 From: campbell@ee.umn.edu (faculty S. A. Campbell) Marc I tried posting this message this morning but it didn't seem to go through. I'm not sure what's wrong. Anyway I hope you don't mind if I just direct this set of questions to you. I want to finish the part tonight and so I would really like to find out the answers. I've now started on Chapter 4, building the seatback last weekend. Thanks for the newsgroup - where else could I find out that uni can be butted together while bid has to be overlapped, all at 11 PM on a Saturday night? Anyway I've never glassed before or even seen anyone glass and I have some questions: Do I need to glass the sides of the seatback or just the top and bottom? Do I have to do anything with the open holes to cover the exposed foam? In the diagrams it looks like one has to dig out some of the foam to insert flox at the joints. Is this the case or do you just smear some flox in the region of the joint and glass over the flox? When microballoning the foam, is it essential to get a completely white layer with absolutely no gaps or is 90-95% coverage OK? It seems to take a fair amount of epoxy to be sure to get all of the foam covered. Anyway the part looks great and I had a ball. Finally - for those of us without www access, how about putting out a list of component weights occassionally in the newsgroup? Thanks again for your inputs Anxiously awaiting my first weigh in Steve Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 16:17:31 EDT Subject: Re: questions Steve; >I tried posting this message this morning but it didn't seem to go >through. I'm not sure what's wrong. Anyway I hope you don't mind if I >just direct this set of questions to you. I want to finish the part >tonight and so I would really like to find out the answers. No problem. You're assuming, of course, that I can answer them :-). >I've now started on Chapter 4, building the seatback last weekend. >Thanks for the newsgroup - where else could I find out that uni can be >butted together while bid has to be overlapped, all at 11 PM on a Saturday >night? CNN? >..... Anyway I've never glassed before or even seen anyone glass and I >have some questions: Do I need to glass the sides of the seatback or >just the top and bottom? Just the top and bottom. The sides will end up hidden in a butt joint to the fuselage sides. This is the case for all the bulkheads, and most of the sandwich layups unless otherwise specified. >...................... Do I have to do anything with the open holes >to cover the exposed foam? Nope. Personally, I'm planning on coating the foam in holes for control system cables and rods with micro at some point, but Nat doesn't seem to have any requirement for it. There's certainly no structural reason to do so. >................. In the diagrams it looks like one has to dig >out some of the foam to insert flox at the joints. Is this the case or >do you just smear some flox in the region of the joint and glass over >the flox? The flox joints are in the corners, and the idea is to get a HARD corner with some structural strength. You do need to dig out about 1/4" worth of foam and fill the empty space with flox, and then glass over it. I think there's an explanation and a picture of flox joints in Chapter 3. >....... When microballooning the foam, is it essential to get a >completely white layer with absolutely no gaps or is 90-95% coverage OK? Well, the better your coverage, the better the adhesion to the glass, the less epoxy your foam will soak up out of the glass, and the less chance you will have of a dry layup. I'd shoot for 98% or better. >It seems to take a fair amount of epoxy to be sure to get all of the >foam covered. Anyway the part looks great and I had a ball. The blue foam for the seatback bulkhead and the fuselage sides will suck up an IMMENSE amount of micro in comparison to the other foams - don't be alarmed. If you think it's ABSORBING too much, you might try using more microballoons in the micro slurry - I tend to use a pretty thick slurry. Nowhere close to dry micro (or even wet), but at least a 1:1 ratio of balloons to epoxy; maybe 1.5 : 1 . This will fill the pores and have some body to it. Not too dry - then it might suck epoxy out of the glass layup. >Finally - for those of us without www access, how about putting out a >list of component weights occassionally in the newsgroup? Lee Devlin has been keeping track of weights - I haven't weighed anything yet. Why don't you and he work on putting a table or database of component weights together, and I'll be happy to put them on the Web, and you can e-mail it at some regular interval to the group. How's that sound? Get a WWW browser! You're at a university, they ought to have such things! :-). -- Marc J. Zeitlin E-Mail: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 19:39:10 -0700 From: ljansch@ix.netcom.com (Larry Jansch) Subject: Ch. 4 Tolerance Buildup? Questions: In chapter 4 (P.1), fabricating the front seat back, after trimming the edges using the templates. 1) When you glass the seat back, are you supposed to glass around the edges of those areas you cut out? It manual seems unclear about that. 2) Are you also supposed to glass the inside edges of the torque tube hole? 3) Are you supposed to glass the edges of the map pocket and heat duct cutout areas? (ch.4, pg.1, fig. 6) Thanks in advance! -Larry Mk.IV Kit #461 From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Ch. 4 Tolerance Buildup? (fwd) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 8:57:52 EDT Larry Jansch writes; >1) When you glass the seat back, are you supposed to glass around the >edges of those areas you cut out? It manual seems unclear about that. >2) Are you also supposed to glass the inside edges of the torque tube >hole? >3) Are you supposed to glass the edges of the map pocket and heat duct >cutout areas? (ch.4, pg.1, fig. 6) I do believe that these questions were (at least partially addressed in the "chapter 4" archives :-). Wait, yes, here it is - an exchange between Lee Devlin and myself; >................................... Speaking of the bulkheads, >is there any treatment for the edges? That is, do you wrap the glass >around the edge to meet up with the back side or there just exposed foam >on the edges of the bulkheads (unlike the seat back)? Just leave the foam exposed, unless there are explicit instructions to do otherwise (like on the seatback or the forward landing gear bulkhead). The Q2 was different; they always had a glass to glass joint on the bulkhead edges, but I don't think there's a real structural difference - once you've taped the bulkheads into the fuselage sides and bottom, the edges are not doing much anyway. For the edges exposed on the INSIDE of the fuselage, I'll probably hollow them out and fill with dry micro at some later point (unless instructed to do otherwise) just to have a good painting surface. That might not even be necessary. My $0.02. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 07:02:14 -0700 (PDT) From: ljansch@ix.netcom.com (Larry Jansch) Subject: Got another question ... Thanks to all for the pile of replies. I won't glass the bulkhead cutout areas unless the manual specifically calls for it. How does one cut out the torque tube holes at the prescribed 45 degree angle? I do not have a drill press, at least not yet. How did you all do it? -Larry -- Mk.IV #461 From: Marc J. Zeitlin Subject: Torque Tube Holes Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 10:16:19 EDT Larry Jansch writes: >How does one cut out the torque tube holes at the prescribed 45 >degree angle? I do not have a drill press, at least not yet. How did >you all do it? I marked the front and back faces using the templates, drilled a small hole through, and then opened it up using the small drum sander on my dremel tool. -- Marc J. Zeitlin Email: marcz@an.hp.com Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:04:00 -0400 From: Dick.Finn@FNB.sprint.com Subject: Re: Got another question ... Larry, Try using a drill with a hole saw and having someone sight the angle while you steer. You can use a combination square to get a sight line for the 45 degrees. Don't use a spade bit as it would be hard to aim and will grab on the glass fibers. I don't think the angle is that critical -- all the hole provides is a pass through and it will be covered by the arm rests. When you install the torque tube you may have to sand/shape/patch the hole a bit but this is easy. If you have to make larger adjustments you could even patch the old area with foam and glass and redrill. In places where holes are critical for torque tubes and the like something other than foam with a few layers of glass is used. For instance, the aileron torque tube holes in the wings have a piece of 1/4" phenolic with a hole for the tube glassed in place on the inboard wing rib. The phenolic acts as a bearing. Some builders have even used nylon bearings there. Consider buying a drill press. It seems to me that the plans say that you can do everything with hand tools. The fact is, you probably need a band saw, drill press, belt/disk sander, table saw as well as several hand power tools in order to do a good job. There are several vendors that sell low priced equipment through mailorder (i.e. Harbor Freight Salvage, A&I Supply, etc.). You probably wouldn't want to use their stuff in a production environment but they are more then good enough (with careful set up) for occasional use. Dick Finn ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Got another question ... Author: ljansch@ix.netcom.com at INTERNET Date: 10/23/95 10:10 AM Thanks to all for the pile of replies. I won't glass the bulkhead cutout areas unless the manual specifically calls for it. How does one cut out the torque tube holes at the prescribed 45 degree angle? I do not have a drill press, at least not yet. How did you all do it? -Larry -- Mk.IV #461 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:29:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Westland Subject: Re: Got another question ... I would wait to cut out any of the control holes in the bulkheads until you get to that point. It saves time and you get them exactly where you want them. Eric On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Larry Jansch wrote: > Thanks to all for the pile of replies. I won't glass the bulkhead > cutout areas unless the manual specifically calls for it. > > How does one cut out the torque tube holes at the prescribed 45 > degree angle? I do not have a drill press, at least not yet. How did > you all do it? > > -Larry > > -- > Mk.IV #461 > Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 23:39:25 -0500 From: JIMWHI@aol.com Subject: Re: Cutouts in the Bulkhead In a message dated 95-10-24 04:39:57 EST, you write: >I would wait to cut out any of the control holes in the bulkheads until >you get to that point. It saves time and you get them exactly where you >want them. > >Eric > That goes for all the holes in the bulkheads with the possible exception of the seat back map pocket. Jim White's $0.02 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:14:12 -0500 From: JHocut@aol.com Subject: CH 4 - build time & parts weights I am proud to announce that despite having to work for a living, I have completed ch. 4. Following are my parts weights and build time. Note that all parts were vac. bagged except the firewall (I was a little concerned about drawing too much resin away from the wood/glass interface, maybe justified, maybe not). Ch 4 build time 59 hrs. (incl. about 8 hrs due to my screw ups) Parts Weights: F22 2.00 lbs F28 0.48 Instr. Panel 3.88 Seatback 4.70 Fwd Lower LG Attach Bulkhead 1.29 Fwd Upper LG Attach Bulkhead 0.71 Aft LG Attach Bulkhead 2.38 Firewall Sides (both) 0.63 Firewall Upper 3.28 Firewall Lower 2.70 Date: 12 Dec 95 22:05:01 EST From: "William E. Buckley" <74744.2301@compuserve.com> Subject: Bulkheads/Peelply First off let me say that I'm thrilled to FINALLY be underway. I'm now officially a builder. Boy does it feel great to finally get going. That being the case, I now have a couple of questions that have come up: 1. When laying up the front seat back I peelplied the entire layup in the interest of saving weight. I unintentionally allowed the peelply to have some wrinkles in it. After I removed the peelply you could really tell the difference between the areas that had been covered and the spots that hadn't (under the wrinkles). At first I thought that the 'wrinkle areas' were dry areas and the piece would have to be made over. There really is a lot of difference. The weave of the cloth is very apparent without the peelply whereas the bulkhead is very smooth where the peelply made full contact. My question is whether or not this is indeed the correct appeareance when using peelply? Is this the "almost ready for finishing" result I'm supposed to get. I was worried that it was too much of an epoxy surface layer and sanded the bulkhead with 60 grit anyway. (Sucked, by the way. Still scratching). 2. On the aft landing gear bulkhead the plans show extra angled UND layers (8 front, 3 back). I'm assuming that since the 1/2 template is mirrored for the opposite side that the drawing taken in total would indicate the alternating layers are crossed (just like every other multiple layer layup throughout the plans). This is never specified for this step. It really wouldn't make since to have them all going the same direction. Would someone please confirm my theory so I will have a 'warm fuzzy' or shoot me down and set me straight. Thanks in advance for your help. William E. Buckley (Cozy MK IV # 437) 74744.2301@compuserve.com Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:12:00 -0500 From: Dick.Finn@FNB.sprint.com Subject: Re: Bulkheads/Peelply William, I have also had places where the peel ply had a bubble or wrinkle and allowed the glass weave to show through. These are not dry areas and can be ignored. Eventually you will cover these areas with an thick micro mixture during the finishing process so that they will not show. Dry areas are apparent from the whitish appearance. If you have a dry area you will recognize it immediately. The peel plyed areas should look like they are ready for finishing. Before laying up any additoinal glass oveer a non-peel plyed area you do need to rough up the surface with coarse sand paper. As you found out, wear a long sleeve shirt and gloves when sanding to avoid the itching. ALWAYS (I repeat ALWAYS) use a maskor fresh air respirator when sanding. If your skin is itching, imagine what is happening to your lungs. Hobbyaire manufactures a fresh air respirator and a relatively high cost. I've seen postings on building your own at a low cost. Do it! In an early Canard Pusher newsletter Rutan advises against using peel ply over the complete structure. His fear was that it would starve the lower layers of the glass by soaking up the epoxy. I think just about everyone is ignoring this suggestion. If you vacumn bag everything you would get the same affect (only more so) and vacumn bagging is universally considered a good thing. I don't have my plans here and can't remember the specifics of the layups on my rear bulk heads. Generally speaking layers (BID and UNI) are alternated in direction. Take a look at the drawings and the written plans to see if you may have overlooked something. Nat is real good about specifying glass directions. The plans are so detailed that it is easy to miss one detail among many. In many cases I've found that rereading a couple of times often allows me to find the specific thing I'm looking for. Good luck, Dick Finn Cozy Mark IV #46 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Bulkheads/Peelply Author: 74744.2301@compuserve.com at INTERNET Date: 12/12/95 10:12 PM 1. When laying up the front seat back I peelplied the entire layup in the interest of saving weight. I unintentionally allowed the peelply to have some wrinkles in it. After I removed the peelply you could really tell the difference between the areas that had been covered and the spots that hadn't 2. On the aft landing gear bulkhead the plans show extra angled UND layers (8 front, 3 back). I'm assuming that since the 1/2 template is mirrored for the opposite side that the drawing taken in total would indicate the alternating layers are crossed William E. Buckley (Cozy MK IV # 437) 74744.2301@compuserve.com From: Michael Antares Subject: Glass direction Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 19:29:58 -0800 Just in case there is still some confusion, I just looked at the = bulkhead drawings because I don't remember having much difficulty in = determining which direction the glass should go. I think the confusion = may be in not realizing that the arrows on the drawings are there to = show the glass direction. In the case of the rear bulkheads, there are = 8 layers of UND glass (as an example) which all go so that they are = parallel with the slanted direction of the two end uprights--note the = long arrows showing this direction. In general even multiple layers of = UND glass go in the same direction because their purpose is to give = strength in one direction only. The BID glass provides the overall = strength. This all rapidly becomes instinctive as the chapters go by = (although there are always new and interesting challenges). My two cents... Michael