From: Militch@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:50:01 EST Subject: Re: COZY: constant speed propellor for 0-360 powered Cozy IV A constant speed prop sounds like a wonderful asset, but one reason that I selected the Cozy was its relatively low cost. $13K - $15K for the airframe is an excellent deal for the performance and range offered. Obviously the bill is going to get a lot bigger once the engine and avionics are in, but $5K - $8K for a constant speed prop (which presumably will be just as much at risk for stone damage as an ordinary prop) seems disproportionately expensive. My back of the envelope guess is that my Cozy will cost $94 an hour to operate if I fly it 200 hours a year. A constant speed prop would add to that number. If you have the money to spend, great. I am envious already. Regards From: "ZEITLIN,MARC (A-Andover,ex1)" Subject: COZY: operating costs Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:10:25 -0700 Pete Militch wrote: > ........ My back of the envelope > guess is that my Cozy will cost $94 an hour to operate if I > fly it 200 hours a year. Where'd you get that number, Pete? Here's what I come up with for 200 hrs/yr.: Insurance: $2K/yr. = $10/hr. Hangar/Tiedown: $1000/yr. = $5/hr. Maintenance/Annual: $1000/yr. = $5/hr. Gas/Oil (10 gal/hr): $22/hr. Engine Rebuild Fund: $7/hr. ------ $49/hr. Or less than it costs me to rent a beat up Warrior or Cessna 172 ($63/hr). At 200 mph, this is about $0.25/mile, or less than it costs me to drive. How'd you come up with $98/hr.? (unless you're including amortization of your $50K sunk cost, and you don't ever expect to see that back in your lifetime, unlike the car's costs, which DO include amortization on a car that gets thrown away after 10 years). -- Marc J. Zeitlin marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu http://cozy.canard.com Non Impediti Ratione Cogitantonis (C&C) From: Militch@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:34:49 EST Subject: COZY: Operating costs Marc wrote: >Where'd you get that number, Pete? Here's what I come up with for 200 >hrs/yr.: > >Insurance: $2K/yr. = $10/hr. > >Hangar/Tiedown: $1000/yr. = $5/hr. >Maintenance/Annual: $1000/yr. = $5/hr. >Gas/Oil (10 gal/hr): $22/hr. > >Engine Rebuild Fund: $7/hr. > ------ > $49/hr. You're right about the the sunk cost of the plane - I didn't count that - the result would be too horrible. I checked my numbers since they were a bit old. I get the following. What do you think? Direct Hourly Costs Fuel @ $2.00/gal $22 Oil @ $4.00/qt $1 Scheduled 50-hour maintenance $4 Unscheduled maintenance $4 ---------------------------------------------------- Direct Hourly Costs subtotal $31 Engine overhaul savings fund $8 Miscellaneous engine maintenance (vacuum pumps, etc) $2 ----------------------------------------------------- Total Hourly Costs $41 Annual Fixed Costs Fixing discoveries made at annual inspection $1000 Insurance $1500 Propeller repair / replace $300 / year (1 prop every 5 years) Paint and interior $300 /year (repaint / repair every 5 or 6 years) Avionics maintenance, gyros etc. $800 Hangar $1800 Recurrent training $1000 ---------------------------------------------------- Total Annual Fixed Costs $6700 Total Cost/Hr @ 200 hours/year 6700 /200 + 41 = $74 (add 20% because I always forget something and that gets you to $90) Comments? Regards From: "Nat Puffer" Subject: COZY: operating costs Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:25:41 -0600 Builders, If you build your Mark IV yourself, you will have a minimum investment in the airframe, compared to a prefab kit airplane, you will know better than anyone else how it was built, the construction is almost indestructable (compared to aluminum, wood, or rag), and you will know better than anyone else how to make repairs, and the repair material cost will be of little consequence, so why buy hull insurance? We haven't in all these years. Liability insurance (Avemco) costs us just over $400/yr., which is less than we pay for either of our automobiles. We had a Glassair owner/pilot deciding to build a Cozy. He said he had around $150,000 invested in his airplane, and couldn't afford the hull insurance which was costing him several thousand dollars per year (I don't remember for sure, but it may even have been $5,000/yr). If you fly 100 hours per year, liability insurance will cost you around $4/hr. If you fly more, it would be even less. Maintenance shouldn't cost you much, if you do it yourself, and if you keep your airplane up, it shouldn't depreciate. The engine might even increase in value each year. The advantages of a homebuilt go far beyond the original investment. Regards, Nat Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:42:40 -0600 From: "Tom Brusehaver" Subject: Re: COZY: Operating costs Militch@aol.com wrote: > Direct Hourly Costs ... > > Scheduled 50-hour maintenance $4 > Unscheduled maintenance $4 > ---------------------------------------------------- ... > Engine overhaul savings fund $8 > Miscellaneous engine maintenance (vacuum pumps, etc) $2 > ----------------------------------------------------- > Total Hourly Costs $41 This seems really high, every 50 hours you are planning on $200 maintenance, plus, unscheduled maint @ $800 per year, misc engine maint @ $400 per year. That is like $2000 a year in unplanned maintence I think, not counting the basics, like oil, prop, avionics and annuals. > > Annual Fixed Costs > Fixing discoveries made at annual inspection $1000 So this get to $3000 per year in unplanned maintence. ... > Recurrent training $1000 I know this is part of flying, but I wouldn't count this in the hourly cost of running the cozy. Certainly you need to do recurrent training, no matter what you fly, but for comparison (cozy vs. whatever), I'd leave this amount out. (well, lets see, instructors charge ~$25/hr, so that'd be another 40 hours, or were you counting the cost of the airplane too $115/hr during training, ~10hrs/year might be short?). ... > Total Cost/Hr @ 200 hours/year 6700 /200 + 41 = $74 > (add 20% because I always forget something and that gets you to $90) That is $16/hr, unplanned, putting you to ~$7K per year in unplanned costs? Not picking on anyone, it is interesting how people cost out their airplane. My wife asks how much it'll cost to visit her parents in Denver (FCM->DEN ~700nm), I tell her about $80. She lets me build that way. :-) From: "STEPHEN OBRIEN" Subject: Re: COZY: operating costs Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:47:05 -0500 I have always been curious (and somewhat amused) as to why we feel it is necessary to have an "engine overhaul / rebuild fund". Before you respond, please just hear me out first...... Let's assume that the engine is trash at overhaul, and you will replace it with a brand spankin' new one. Okay, let's also assume that this engine will cost you about $30K. Let's also assume you go five to six years between engine replacement. Ya know, this is starting to look a lot like your trusty family vehicle parked in the garage / driveway. So now my question is--- how many of you have a "new car replacement fund" that you contribute / track every time you drive? For you golfers - how many have a "new equipment / putter replacement fund"? If you have a boat (of any size), how many have an "engine replacement fund"? If you really want to talk big money - how many have a home repair / replacement fund? A roof replacement fund? And so on and so on...... So what I end up with is --- if we don't bother trying to justify our car(s) and/or other hobbies, why do we go to such lengths with our airplanes? Just my 2c worth....... Thanks for the bandwidth... -----Original Message----- From: ZEITLIN,MARC (A-Andover,ex1) To: 'Cozy List' Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 1:16 PM Subject: COZY: operating costs >Pete Militch wrote: > >> ........ My back of the envelope >> guess is that my Cozy will cost $94 an hour to operate if I >> fly it 200 hours a year. > >Where'd you get that number, Pete? Here's what I come up with for 200 >hrs/yr.: > >Insurance: $2K/yr. = $10/hr. > >Hangar/Tiedown: $1000/yr. = $5/hr. > >Maintenance/Annual: $1000/yr. = $5/hr. > >Gas/Oil (10 gal/hr): $22/hr. > >Engine Rebuild Fund: $7/hr. > ------ > $49/hr. > >Or less than it costs me to rent a beat up Warrior or Cessna 172 ($63/hr). >At 200 mph, this is about $0.25/mile, or less than it costs me to drive. >How'd you come up with $98/hr.? (unless you're including amortization of >your $50K sunk cost, and you don't ever expect to see that back in your >lifetime, unlike the car's costs, which DO include amortization on a car >that gets thrown away after 10 years). > >-- >Marc J. Zeitlin marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu > http://cozy.canard.com > > Non Impediti Ratione Cogitantonis (C&C) From: cdenk@ix.netcom.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:25:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: COZY: Operating Costs Here are my last 3 years Cosy operating costs. I choose not to include projections for overhauls, etc. DESCRIPTION 1997 1998 1999 HOURS FLOWN 103.5 129.9 92.8 MAINTENANCE $735.00 $1,169.00 $3,818.00 CHARTS $606.00 $695.00 $594.00 FUEL $2,210.00 $2,678.00 $1,827.00 HANGAR $1,762.00 $1,867.00 $1,868.00 INSURANCE $1,513.00 $1,391.00 $1,536.00 MISCELLANEOUS $230.00 $549.00 $ 99.00 REPAIRS $180.00 $710.00 $698.00 TOTAL $7,339.50 $9,188.90 $10,532.80 Fuel/Hour $21.35 $20.62 $19.69 Notes: 1: Maintenance includes oil, filters, tires, and routine misc. expenses plus: 1998 Altimeter repair and new prop spinner, 1999 replaced all oil hoses and directional gyro overhaul 2: Charts include Sky Charts full US IFR coverage, Airguide full US coverage airport directory, and current VFR chats for all flights. 3: Insurance $1,000,000 liability, hull $40,000, except 1999 $50,000, 1000 hour pilot 4: Miscellaneous includes anything associated with flying that I wouldn't have if didn't have with airplane, Medical exam, magazines, AOPA and EAA membership, etc. 5: Repairs include not normal expenses including engine parts, GPS Y2k and battery replacement, new exhaust pipe, vacuum pump replacement 6: Logically since we use the aircraft as an alternative to other forms of transportation, some of these costs could be written off other ways. From: sdbish@juno.com Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:27:12 -0700 Subject: COZY: operating costs --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: "ZEITLIN,MARC (A-Andover,ex1)" . . . . . . . (unless you're including amortization of your $50K sunk cost, and you don't ever expect to see that back in your lifetime, unlike the car's costs, which DO include amortization on a car that gets thrown away after 10 years). Marc J. Zeitlin marc_zeitlin@alum.mit.edu http://cozy.canard.com We all try to justify our projects by keeping costs down, and ignoring the cost of money is one way to do that. However, it should not be ignored. Even if your $50K machine does not depreciate, you have that money tied up when it could be doing other things for you. What else would you do with it, and what would it be worth if you didn't have it in an airplane? At 8% that cost is $4,000 per year; at 12% it is $6,000 per year. Recent years if you had it in the stock market, it would have earned on the order of 25%, or $12,500 in a year. To ignore this fact, is essentially admiting you have enough money you do not have to consider it. I believe a better method is to figure it in, then admit you are getting that much enjoyment out of your project. Marv Bishop ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.