From: alwick@juno.com Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:49:20 -0700 Subject: COZY: auto install update I just passed some milestones in my auto installation. Periodically get inquiries and this is a good time to update everyone. Three of my design goals when I decided to use a stock Subaru 2.5 liter EFI engine were: 1) no significant airframe changes 2) no external evidence of auto installation 3) quiet running engine. I'm pleased I was able to achieve all three. At times I was concerned. Airframe changes. The auto install does not require any airframe changes. However, I did elect to add a small center fuel tank to make it easier to handle the return fuel line. External evidence of auto install There is no way you can tell. Totally stock from the outside. Quiet running engine I added a muffler to my exhaust. I hate loud engines and have ended up just a little louder than car engine at all rpm. Very quiet. I think it's only a matter of time before engine noise is regulated as in Europe. My plane won't irritate 10 to 20 people per flight. Auto installation myths A) Falicy: "auto installations are expensive". Wrong. I made some decisions which ran my total expense to $5600. The same components now would be $4600. Engine $2500, Psru $2700, Custom radiator $400. My engine has less than 5000 miles on it. B) Falicy:"auto install requires many many additional construction hours". I was very surprised to find that the engine install went very fast. I suspect the stock auto approach is actually much faster than lyc install. Never expected that. However, I'm sure that I could have chewed up a bunch more time by making different decisions. To be fair though, I do expect my test phase to be longer than most lyc installations. I have 4 hours on engine now.....absolutely no problems so far. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by Subaru. Now sanding/painting last parts. Aug 2000 first flight scheduled ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: "John Slade" Subject: Re: COZY: auto install update Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:29:02 -0400 Hello Al, Thanks for posting the info on your engine install. There will be some similarities to my Mazda 13B installation, so I'd like to ask for a few more details if I may.... >elect to add a small center fuel tank to make it easier to handle the >return fuel line. I was thinking of doing the same. Could you tell a little more about how you're center tank was plumbed? Size/capacity? Where it fits? Venting? Do you use the stock fuel valve? What fuel pumps/s do you use and where are they? Are you using the stock engine mount hardpoints? Standard cowling? Muffler position / details? Oil cooler position? Stock NACA scoop cooling? Radiator supplier? Regards, John Slade, Cozy MKIV #757, progress: http://kgarden.com/cozy West Palm Beach, FL (Chapter 17 - roll trim) From: alwick@juno.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 07:29:14 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: auto install update On Tue, 2 May 2000 00:29:02 -0400 "John Slade" writes: > I was thinking of doing the same. Could you tell a little more about how > you're center tank was plumbed? Size/capacity? Where it fits? > Venting? It fits directly above the rear landing gear. Only 1.2 gallons as I recall. Vent is tied into main tank vent. It's "L" shaped. Stock fuel line enters this tank. I have two fuel inlets inside tank. 1 uses the stock inlet filter bag, the other has no filtering. Each goes to seperate fuel pump. 1 pump is main, 2nd pump is backup pump only. Each pump has seperate outlet stock filter. >Do you use the stock fuel valve? What fuel pumps/s do you use and where are > they? Stock fuel valve, 2 pumps on bottom rear of firewall. I'd put pumps inside main tanks if I had it to do over. Value to considering no tank selector and 6 way selector. > > Are you using the stock engine mount hardpoints? Totally stock > > Standard cowling? Totally stock cowling > > Muffler position / details? Built "roll your own muffler". It serves as balancer between two exhaust pipes. Muffler is 4" diam, 8" long. Two inlets, two outlets with flat plate in between. Flat plate has holes drilled randomly to equal 1.5 times tube diam. Recommended by guy on subaru list. Love it. > > Oil cooler position? None. Have to test to determine if it's needed. If I need one I will add Modine adapter to extract heat using radiator water. Much more efficient. > > Stock NACA scoop cooling? Totally stock > > Radiator supplier? Haven't bought it yet. Did get quote. All aluminum. Griffith Radiator and C&R racing have been recommended. On net. Was temped to use horizontal rad mounted under engine. Can get rad for $35. But it's asking alot for air flow to turn 90 degrees into radiator. Steve Sharp recommended custom radiator that allows air to flow w/o turns. Makes much more sense. I have cad dwgs of fuel tank and fuel sys design. Also engine/firewall/engine cover fits. When you get to the "detail" point, happy to share them. Only engine mods I had to do were to remove EGR valve, make spacer for throttle body to lower it's profile a bit, make intake duct. About 6 hours work. Needless to say, my conversion not tested yet. I do expect problems. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by Subaru. Now sanding/painting last parts. Aug 2000 first flight scheduled ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 12:16:10 -0400 From: Jim Sower Subject: Re: COZY: auto install update Al, < stock Subaru 2.5 liter EFI engine > If I am correct in assuming that stock EFI depends on Oxygen sensor, etc. how do you plan to adapt to 100LL? Is there a trick aftermarket chip that allows manual leaning so it isn't sensor dependent or can you limit yourself to mogas refuel points or what? This is something that has bothered me for some time - the problems that stock EFIs have with leaded gas. How are you dealing with that issue? Inquiring minds need to know ;-) Jim S. alwick@juno.com wrote: > I just passed some milestones in my auto installation. Periodically get > inquiries and this is a good time to update everyone. > Three of my design goals when I decided to use a stock Subaru 2.5 liter > EFI engine were: > > 1) no significant airframe changes > 2) no external evidence of auto installation > 3) quiet running engine. > > I'm pleased I was able to achieve all three. At times I was concerned. > > Airframe changes. > The auto install does not require any airframe changes. However, I did > elect to add a small center fuel tank to make it easier to handle the > return fuel line. > > External evidence of auto install > There is no way you can tell. Totally stock from the outside. > > Quiet running engine > I added a muffler to my exhaust. I hate loud engines and have ended up > just a little louder than car engine at all rpm. Very quiet. I think it's > only a matter of time before engine noise is regulated as in Europe. My > plane won't irritate 10 to 20 people per flight. > > Auto installation myths > A) Falicy: "auto installations are expensive". Wrong. I made some > decisions which ran my total expense to $5600. The same components now > would be $4600. Engine $2500, Psru $2700, Custom radiator $400. My engine > has less than 5000 miles on it. > > B) Falicy:"auto install requires many many additional construction > hours". I was very surprised to find that the engine install went very > fast. I suspect the stock auto approach is actually much faster than lyc > install. Never expected that. However, I'm sure that I could have chewed > up a bunch more time by making different decisions. To be fair though, I > do expect my test phase to be longer than most lyc installations. I have > 4 hours on engine now.....absolutely no problems so far. > > > -al wick > Canopy Latch System guy. > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by Subaru. > Now sanding/painting last parts. Aug 2000 first flight scheduled > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: alwick@juno.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:26:15 -0700 Subject: Re: COZY: auto install update On Tue, 02 May 2000 12:16:10 -0400 Jim Sower writes: > Al, > < stock Subaru 2.5 liter EFI engine > > If I am correct in assuming that stock EFI depends on Oxygen sensor, etc. how > do you plan to adapt to 100LL? The oxy sensor is permissive. allows engine to lean further. Engine runs fine w/o sensors. I plan on running auto fuel most of the time. I understand strategic location will shield oxy sensor from high temps and delay or eliminate failure due to 100LL. Wouldn't be too hard to provide computer with false water temp info. It too affects leaning, but I'm not going there. >Is there a trick aftermarket chip that allows > manual leaning so it isn't sensor dependent or can you limit yourself to > mogas refuel points or what? Nothing I know of yet. Rumor of lead tolerant ox sensors. -al wick Canopy Latch System guy. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, Cozy IV powered by Subaru. Now sanding/painting last parts. Aug 2000 first flight scheduled ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From: "Nat Puffer" Subject: Re: COZY: Mazda conversion Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:30:02 -0500 Mazda Fans, Larry L. Olson, 489 Penguin Drive, Satellite Beach FL 32937 installed a Mazda 13B in his Cozy Mark IV several years ago. He had made some other "modifications" as well. The Mazda was in it for about a year, and then he replaced it with a Franklin. I tried to find out about both installations, but Larry would not share any information with me. Larry's hangar partner was 3-place Cozy builder/pilot Thomas Gross, 8030 Sugar Pine Drive, Melbourne Fl 32904. Tom told me that Larry wasn't very popular around the airport with the Mazda, because it was so loud, and that he probably replaced it because he could only get about 140 mph (kts? I don't remember). I suggest that John Slade try to find out from either of these chaps more about the Mazda installation, and why it wasn't satisfactory, and report back to the rest of us. VanGruesven told me he had a similar problem, that RV builders who installed auto conversions would never share any information, so he did not know whether the installations were satisfactory. Regards, Nat ---------- > From: John Slade > To: Herbert Boks ; cozy_builders@canard.com > Subject: Re: COZY: Mazda conversion > Date: Saturday, September 02, 2000 2:40 PM > > Hello Herbert, > > >The basic choice has been made: it will be a Mazda 13B. > Many Cozy builders would consider this off topic. Perhaps it would be better > to discuss the details over in the rotary forum at > http://home.earthlink.net/~rotaryeng/ On the other hand, I know of four > Cozy builders who are actively working on 13B installations and at least a > dozen who said they plan to go that way. Maybe there's enough interest for a > Cozy 13B forum. Anyway, I'll respond here, then shut up in deference to the > majority. > > >Thank you John S. for your highly informative website. > You're very welcome, but keep in mind - That's just my opinion - I could be > wrong. > > >Holland I must meet very strict noise criteria and the only way to achieve > >that is by using a c.s. propeller. > Really? Does a CS prop make THAT much difference to the noise? > > Peter Milich Wrote: > >Rotaries are noisy - really noisy. A turbo may help, but you will need to > find a place to >locate a very hefty muffler. The exhaust heat is > remarkable on a rotary, so I presume >you'll have to duplicate the materials > used by Mazda in their auto installations, and that >will be heavy. > I stood on the ramp while Tracy Crook taxiied up in his 13B powered RV. It > didn't sound any noisier than a Cessna, possible a little quieter. Next I > looked at his muffler. It's a small homemade stainless steel affair under > the engine. Many seem to be planning much more elaborate mufflers made of > stainless or inconel. I met one guy who was replacing a Lycoming with a 13B > mainly because he'd rode in Tracy's plane and found that it was very quiet > and had much less vibration in flight. > > >After lengthy discussion with the owner I concluded that a single turbo 2nd > >generation 13B is the best choice. This is a 200HP standard, but I expect > >to get at least 20hp more without the katalyst. > Based on my limited knowledge, I agree with Peter here. The turbo is added > complication (and weight) you could probably do without. I opted for a 3rd > gen REW 13B with some minor porting and high compression rotors, 3MM apex > seals and EFI. > > >- Tracy Crook's ECU and PSRU. > > Yes. > > >- Older version oil injection pump (mechanical control via throttle), > >modified to inject oil from a separate tank. > > I'm dumping this idea in favor of mixing 2 stroke oil with the fuel on the > advice of my engine guy. This keeps it simple and fool proof. > > >- Fiberglass intake manifold with standard EFI and throttle body. > > Not sure yet. Aluminum may be a better bet for the intake manifold. > > >- Stock turbo and waterpump. > > Turbo no, waterpump, yes. > > >- 3rd generation bearings and parts that fit this engine where possible. > > Again, why not a 3rd gen engine. > > >- Don't know about seals yet. There seem to be many options at vastly > >different cost, with ceramic at $600 per rotor the most expensive. > > I went with steel seals. > > >- No port modifications (plenty power as is). > > A little smoothing can't hurt. > > >- Engine mount to be discussed. What is the status on this? Has a mount > >been designed yet? I'm not an engineer, but I can do a solid model of the > >engine in autocad to play around with and identify a setup with sufficient > >stiffness and clearance. > > I'll be deep into this in the next week or so with Bulent Alieve. Right > Buly? > We have Barry mounts ready to go. > > >- Cooling system: I'm totally ignorant here. I'd put in a stock radiator, > >but I know there's more to it than just that. > > Yes. Stock radiator seems to be recommended. I'll be using wiggins > couplings. > > >- Exhaust system: This will have to be my own special. > There are lot's of theories about this in the rotary forum. > > >- Ivoprop 2 or 3 blade c.s. propeller (target: max weight at sea level from > >standstill to airborne in under 6 secs :-)) > > I'm not sure about the Ivoprop. I have heard a few bad stories, and some > good reports. I think I'll use a 3 blade wood prop from Performance or Catto > (but I did order the CS capable redrive from Tracy in case I decide to use a > cs later). Klaus makes a beautiful prop, but he doesn't / won't make one > for this application. > > One issue you didnt mention is the fuel system. You have to consider the > need for fuel return to the tank you're drawing from, or a header / sump > tank. Keep this in mind when you do you're strakes. > > >Building PH-CZY (Ch.9) > > I'ts probably a bit early to worry about all the engine details unless > you're a very fast builder. I will be working my way through all the issues > you've raised over the next few months and, hopefully, doing flight testing > on you're behalf! I'd recommend that you keep an eye on my web site and the > rotary forum while building the plane per plans. Maybe, in a year or two, > I'll be able to fly over to Holland and show you how to duplicate a proven > installation. In this instance it's always better to follow rather than lead > whenever possible. :>) > > Gutten Tag. > > John Slade, Cozy MKIV #757, progress: http://kgarden.com/cozy > West Palm Beach, FL > >